TR Navy Naval Programs

[Anmdt]

Do you know the reason why they want to place only one NAZAR DIRCM? Is it because of the power output of the generators?

No, similarly the AC design with abundant amount of power generation features one Nazar. Possibly a cost optimization and seen to be enough for the current set of threats combined with other weapon systems but i am certain that they spare a spot for the second one, to be installed later when it is convenient.

 

[Anmdt]

I think your question about the 4K to 5K hull, would best be answered by @Anmdt.
The in-between tonnage platform has been on the board for quite sometime, albeit having been put on the back burner a number of times.
It is however, the logical way to go.
Considering the proliferation of the anti ship missiles of all types, be it subsonic or supersonic or even hypersonic; They are going to be the main adversaries of any large seafaring assets you will have in your navy. Oceans and the seas of the world were big and endless expanses in the 1940s. You had to send planes searching for enemy fleets. Nowadays, satellites and long range radars on planes have rendered the seas and oceans all accessible. Your billion + dollar assets will be the number one targets for those missiles. They will be the first casualties of any modern war. I am not even going to mention the deadly submarines with their AShMs and modern long range torpedoes.

So, how clever is it to invest in these large and expensive ships? There is no place to hide in the sea, unless you are deeply submerged. If we had to invest in surface combatants, I would rather invest in two ocean faring smaller, 4 to 5K ton frigates than one large destroyer. Our last decision for a further 4 I-Class ships making the total of 8, was the right move.

I rumored it before, TN likely is following the global trend and they will create all necessary solutions through TF-2000 design. While 5K frigate was crucial for exports too, (Dearsan still markets the design and TAIS works on one design), TN now focuses on TF-2000 and all necessary classes will be derived from it. Like how OPV was derived from Ada Class.

 

[uçuyorum]

I rumored it before, TN likely is following the global trend and they will create all necessary solutions through TF-2000 design. While 5K frigate was crucial for exports too, (Dearsan still markets the design and TAIS works on one design), TN now focuses on TF-2000 and all necessary classes will be derived from it. Like how OPV was derived from Ada Class.

I had also heard that they've foregone 4-5k design for more istifs and tf2000 instead

 

[Yasar_TR]

@Yasar_TR abi +4 İstif was something that most of us could only hope for and like you said it was a fantastic move.
What I keep wondering for years now is, will it perform any given task fleet operations properly while accompanying Anadolu and TF2000? If my memory serves me well, its some design characteristics were quite limiting. Among those limitations, top of my head, was sea state operation requirement which was state 5 where as TF2000 will have been designed to operate at sea state 6. This criteria alone takes it out of the picture of an independent fleet operation complementary role.

I don’t know. But I really wonder what will a TN independent fleet composition be like? After seeing such a composition of vessels, maybe we can better understand what kind fleet operations TN would be capable of.

Apparently there are quite a few differences in the body design with respect to sea state durability between the Ada Class and the I-Class ships. Naval News gives in her specifications, “unconditional operations under sea state 5” .
Well, Ada Class ship TCG Kinaliada, managed to sail through the Indian and part of the Pacific Oceans to visit Japan. The I-Class ship is supposedly a more capable and ”enhanced endurance” version of the Ada Class.
Sea State operations capabilities are all relative. Yes, a large destroyer like Zumwalt has proven that it can function at Sea State 6. But How accurate the missiles will be? Can the helicopters be operational? Sea state 5 means 2.5-4 metre high waves. Sea state 6 means 4 to 6 metre high waves. What happens to sea-skimming AShMs?

At the moment, even though we have seas on 3 sides, we are still restricted by a large inland sea. We don’t have direct, unrestricted access to open oceans. Neither does Italy. But it has carriers and force projection capability in open seas.
If we are to become an industrial powerhouse and have to protect our industrial and commercial assets overseas, then we need to have larger vessels that have been purpose built. Albeit with provisions that they will be number one targets.

Turkey launches the lead ship of I-class frigates “Istanbul” - Naval News

Istanbul Shipyard today launched the lead ship of the I-class frigates, the future TCG Istanbul (pennant number: F-515). The ceremony hosted VIP guests including President of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Ministry of Defence Hulusi Akar, Chief of the Turkish Armed Forces and Chief of the Turkish...

www.navalnews.com

 

[hugh]

Ministry of National Defence Yaşar Güler: The first sheet metal cutting in the TF-2000 Air Defense Warfare Destroyer and Domestic Aircraft Carrier projects will be done in the first half of 2025.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1868225105286877641

TF-2000 was expected but the metal cutting of the AC in the next 6 months? Oh come on!

 

[Anmdt]

Ministry of National Defence Yaşar Güler: The first sheet metal cutting in the TF-2000 Air Defense Warfare Destroyer and Domestic Aircraft Carrier projects will be done in the first half of 2025.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1868225105286877641

TF-2000 was expected but the metal cutting of the AC in the next 6 months? Oh come on!

Technically speaking they have no place to build AC. Drydock of İstanbul Naval Shipyard (İNS) does not allow the draft of AC, and it has to be dug up and rebuilt in place. They will build few blocks of AC to release a budget (use it as a propaganda tool) and continue with preliminary design phase.

However, i won't be surprised to see if this turns out to be TCG Trakya. But again, it is not build in İNS, but Sedef Shipyard. He is referring to a ceremony in İNS.

And for TF2000 we may see a full speed ahead level construction in by end of 2026. Design has parts to be completed.

 

[Ripley]

I rumored it before, TN likely is following the global trend and they will create all necessary solutions through TF-2000 design. While 5K frigate was crucial for exports too, (Dearsan still markets the design and TAIS works on one design), TN now focuses on TF-2000 and all necessary classes will be derived from it. Like how OPV was derived from Ada Class.

Apparently there are quite a few differences in the body design with respect to sea state durability between the Ada Class and the I-Class ships. Naval News gives in her specifications, “unconditional operations under sea state 5” .
Well, Ada Class ship TCG Kinaliada, managed to sail through the Indian and part of the Pacific Oceans to visit Japan. The I-Class ship is supposedly a more capable and ”enhanced endurance” version of the Ada Class.
Sea State operations capabilities are all relative. Yes, a large destroyer like Zumwalt has proven that it can function at Sea State 6. But How accurate the missiles will be? Can the helicopters be operational? Sea state 5 means 2.5-4 metre high waves. Sea state 6 means 4 to 6 metre high waves. What happens to sea-skimming AShMs?

At the moment, even though we have seas on 3 sides, we are still restricted by a large inland sea. We don’t have direct, unrestricted access to open oceans. Neither does Italy. But it has carriers and force projection capability in open seas.
If we are to become an industrial powerhouse and have to protect our industrial and commercial assets overseas, then we need to have larger vessels that have been purpose built. Albeit with provisions that they will be number one targets.

Turkey launches the lead ship of I-class frigates “Istanbul” - Naval News

Istanbul Shipyard today launched the lead ship of the I-class frigates, the future TCG Istanbul (pennant number: F-515). The ceremony hosted VIP guests including President of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Ministry of Defence Hulusi Akar, Chief of the Turkish Armed Forces and Chief of the Turkish...

www.navalnews.com

I believe I got my answer.
Any in-between class, if one even considered, will be derived from TF2000.
Sounds most logical approach when you think about it. Milgem line’s derivatives becoming more and more popular.
And now it seems that we might be going for another line of ship, namely TF2000 and it’s derivatives.

I think I got a better picture now.
Thank you both for your replies.

 

[Strong AI]

STM is cooking again.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1868326354724266283

 

[TR_123456]

Apparently there are quite a few differences in the body design with respect to sea state durability between the Ada Class and the I-Class ships. Naval News gives in her specifications, “unconditional operations under sea state 5” .
Well, Ada Class ship TCG Kinaliada, managed to sail through the Indian and part of the Pacific Oceans to visit Japan. The I-Class ship is supposedly a more capable and ”enhanced endurance” version of the Ada Class.
Sea State operations capabilities are all relative. Yes, a large destroyer like Zumwalt has proven that it can function at Sea State 6. But How accurate the missiles will be? Can the helicopters be operational? Sea state 5 means 2.5-4 metre high waves. Sea state 6 means 4 to 6 metre high waves. What happens to sea-skimming AShMs?

At the moment, even though we have seas on 3 sides, we are still restricted by a large inland sea. We don’t have direct, unrestricted access to open oceans. Neither does Italy. But it has carriers and force projection capability in open seas.
If we are to become an industrial powerhouse and have to protect our industrial and commercial assets overseas, then we need to have larger vessels that have been purpose built. Albeit with provisions that they will be number one targets.

Turkey launches the lead ship of I-class frigates “Istanbul” - Naval News

Istanbul Shipyard today launched the lead ship of the I-class frigates, the future TCG Istanbul (pennant number: F-515). The ceremony hosted VIP guests including President of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Ministry of Defence Hulusi Akar, Chief of the Turkish Armed Forces and Chief of the Turkish...

www.navalnews.com

Dont we need the 4/5k ton frigates if we want to become a ''blue water'' navy?
Lets face it ,TF-2000 alone wont cut it.
AC,2 TF-2000,1/2 Milden,1 LSS and then what?
The old OHP's?
How to form a battle group?

 

[Ripley]

Dont we need the 4/5k ton frigates if we want to become a ''blue water'' navy?
Lets face it ,TF-2000 alone wont cut it.
AC,2 TF-2000,1/2 Milden,1 LSS and then what?
The old OHP's?
How to form a battle group?

This is what I gathered from what @Yasar_TR abi and @Anmdt wrote

I believe I got my answer.
Any in-between class, if one even considered, will be derived from TF2000.
Sounds most logical approach when you think about it. Milgem line’s derivatives becoming more and more popular.
And now it seems that we might be going for another line of ship, namely TF2000 and it’s derivatives.

I think I got a better picture now.
Thank you both for your replies.

Seems like we’ll have to do with İstif Class until a lighter TF2000 derivative design comes out, IF they decide to do so.

 

[TR_123456]

This is what I gathered from what @Yasar_TR abi and @Anmdt wrote



Seems like we’ll have to do with İstif Class until a lighter TF2000 derivative design comes out, IF they decide to do so.

The problem is that we dont have the luxury to send 2 TF-2000's with the battle/strike group,we need a frigate like the Italian Multipurpose Combat Ship Raimondo Montecuccoli.
''If they decide'' is not good enough.

 

[Ripley]

The problem is that we dont have the luxury to send 2 TF-2000's with the battle/strike group,we need a frigate like the Italian Multipurpose Combat Ship Raimondo Montecuccoli.
''If they decide'' is not good enough/

I totally agree with you. An inadequate independent task force is not acceptable.
As a matter of fact, since I became a member here i posted many times regarding, what I call an ‘in-between’, class to fill the gap.

Obviously, there are many issues to be taken care of however until such class turns into a fully committed project, such as workload of ship yards, new design requirements for said class after TN gets familiar with TF2000, political agenda shifts, budgetary constraints 🫤

I can’t see any other choice but go with İstif class for quite a while.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Dont we need the 4/5k ton frigates if we want to become a ''blue water'' navy?
Lets face it ,TF-2000 alone wont cut it.
AC,2 TF-2000,1/2 Milden,1 LSS and then what?
The old OHP's?
How to form a battle group?

Dont we need the 4/5k ton frigates if we want to become a ''blue water'' navy?
Lets face it ,TF-2000 alone wont cut it.
AC,2 TF-2000,1/2 Milden,1 LSS and then what?
The old OHP's?
How to form a battle group?

Here is the Queen Elizabeth-class carrier group;
2+ escorts (Type 45 destroyer and Type 23 frigate); 1+ replenishment; 1+ Astute/Trafalgar-class attack submarine

So our carrier group can be ; 1 A/C , 1 TF2000, 1 ASW frigate (or Ada/I- Class until a more capable one is available ), 1 milden, 1 Dimdeg.

So really we need a very good 5K ton frigate that specialises in ASW.

 

[boredaf]

Here is the Queen Elizabeth-class carrier group;
2+ escorts (Type 45 destroyer and Type 23 frigate); 1+ replenishment; 1+ Astute/Trafalgar-class attack submarine

So our carrier group can be ; 1 A/C , 1 TF2000, 1 ASW frigate (or Ada/I- Class until a more capable one is available ), 1 milden, 1 Dimdeg.

So really we need a very good 5K ton frigate that specialises in ASW.

That looks to me like it is just what Royal Navy sends, however, they either sail with ships from Netherlands or other NATO countries. In fact, UK literally has an agreement about it with Netherlands. It has been a point of contention that Royal Navy couldn't protect its ACs without putting much of its surface ships around them.

We might not have that luxury ourselves, so we have to be able to provide protection closer to US level by ourselves, otherwise we might as well paint a big target on each side of the AC.

 

[Yasar_TR]

That looks to me like it is just what Royal Navy sends, however, they either sail with ships from Netherlands or other NATO countries. In fact, UK literally has an agreement about it with Netherlands. It has been a point of contention that Royal Navy couldn't protect its ACs without putting much of its surface ships around them.

We might not have that luxury ourselves, so we have to be able to provide protection closer to US level by ourselves, otherwise we might as well paint a big target on each side of the AC.

You are correct that there is an agreement between the UK and Dutch navies for the Dutch ships to accompany UK Carrier strike groups in return for the UK to provide A/C strike group cover to the Dutch. This way UK strike group protects Netherlands and by using Dutch ships, releasing UK warships for other duties. Hence saving money and resources.

But below at the bottom is another document published by the Royal Navy site itself, that clearly states that their strike group consists of:
1 x A/C
2 x type 23 class frigates for hunting submarines
1 x type 45 class destroyer for air defence
1 x Astute Class Nuclear powered strike submarine

They also depend on their air wing group like f35s to provide protection. Also with Merlin helicopters and P8 maritime patrol aircraft’s.

This is the bare bones of a strike group.

In the event of war, a carrier group may consist of more ships to project force in abundance. That is why US and Dutch ships are needed to constitute a task force formed around the Carrier.
Take look at the picture below where a task force has been formed for exercises to project force.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news/2024/october/14/20241014-strike-warrior-begins-as-uk-carrier-strike-group-assembles-in-the-north-sea

 

[Saithan]

You are correct that there is an agreement between the UK and Dutch navies for the Dutch ships to accompany UK Carrier strike groups in return for the UK to provide A/C strike group cover to the Dutch. This way UK strike group protects Netherlands and by using Dutch ships, releasing UK warships for other duties. Hence saving money and resources.

But below at the bottom is another document published by the Royal Navy site itself, that clearly states that their strike group consists of:
1 x A/C
2 x type 23 class frigates for hunting submarines
1 x type 45 class destroyer for air defence
1 x Astute Class Nuclear powered strike submarine

They also depend on their air wing group like f35s to provide protection. Also with Merlin helicopters and P8 maritime patrol aircraft’s.
View attachment 72690

This is the bare bones of a strike group.

In the event of war, a carrier group may consist of more ships to project force in abundance. That is why US and Dutch ships are needed to constitute a task force formed around the Carrier.
Take look at the picture below where a task force has been formed for exercises to project force.
View attachment 72691

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news/2024/october/14/20241014-strike-warrior-begins-as-uk-carrier-strike-group-assembles-in-the-north-sea

I'd like to point out that this is before use of drones and ucavs became so widespread. Whilst I don't think anyone will question the bare minimum I think it's important to have contingency of sorts for the new type of threat that has appeared. Like is USV and such

 

[Fuzuli NL]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1868577113688957406

Our Offshore Patrol Ship TCG AKHİSAR completed its first voyage.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

We can see the empty area behind tge mast of hisar class where the Hisar O type missiles can be placed and antiship missiles .

 

[Sanchez]

We can see the empty area behind tge mast of hisar class where the Hisar O type missiles can be placed and antiship missiles .
View attachment 72696

I hadn't noticed that, see Istanbul's light ASM load. Presumably only 8 in a 4x2 configuration instead of 4x4. And judging by the safety circle/rectangle around the gun on Hisar, are we sure if the gun make a full 360 degree traverse when on standby position and not hit the emplacement behind it? Looks like barrel needs to be raised to complete a full traverse.

 

[Sanchez]

Meanwhile, second Istif class frigate TCG İzmir's construction continues. And I believe one of the new LCT's can be seen on the right. Unsure if it's for export or DzKK use.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1868659493032382947