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Asena_great

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this is my problem we know what they are but does the wider public knows who they are ?? and btw how the fuck Kilicdaroglu get to the position to lead the party when there was way better candidate was there. how when emine ülker tarhan the former supreme court jury (who btw was nationalist as well as secular ) was trying to investigate ergenekon and balyoz she was not supported and then force to leave ???
 

Asena_great

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Ask yourself why all of these guys who are affiliated to enemies of the state are not investigated? Meanwhile he said "fools" and that put him in jail? Is he being set up as the next hero of the Turkish republic in the same way erdogan "went to jail" and became a hero?

Are they planning a bait and switch just as people are getting sick of political islam they are going to deceive us with this guy?
exactly all of the politician (including Erdogan ) are on agreement on new constitution except for nationalists and the people , for this they will camouflage the removal of the first 3 item of our constitution by so called empowered parliamentary system which btw the 4th item of constitution says the first 3 can not be change if they do this they would commit a crime
 

CAN_TR

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Imagine you meet with Cem Özdemir a so called German Politican with Turkish roots (actually Circassian) who regulary vistis PKK meetings in Germany, condems the country he "originates" from etc. etc.

He reminds me somehow to this movie character and i'm not talking about the role DiCaprio is playing... :)

1671558916335.png
 

Nilgiri

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Mohammad Ali Jinnah found the secular republic of Pakistan

One correction here, a republic was not founded till 1956 (well after Jinnah died) and it was not secular given the (heavily Islamist) objectives resolution that had passed in the draft assembly.

That was large part of why the 1956 constitution declared Pakistan to be an "Islamic republic" and this was continued in the 2nd (current) constitution of 1973.

There is large ongoing unresolved debate regarding what exact pushback Jinnah might or might not have been (regarding this course)....say if he lived longer and seen such things as the "objective resolution" during the drafting process. But we simply do not know his actual vision as he did not live long enough to make his clear response to these developments.

So Jinnah did not found a secular republic, his visions/expressions at times hinted towards (a vague long term) secularism and at other times his clear actions and arguments were quite different given the nature of what this founding/partition basis was asserted to be (Muslim majoritarian state).

It was this seed of overt islamism introduced right from the first Islamic republic of 1956 that Zia would expand into.

But he was not the first, all major Pakistani political leaders and forces played their role on this pre-partition, post-partition dominion and 1956 onwards.

This is all incredibly different to Turkiye and the key decisive role Ataturk played for many years in its modern establishment and early guidance.
 

AWP

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One correction here, a republic was not founded till 1956 (well after Jinnah died) and it was not secular given the (heavily Islamist) objectives resolution that had passed in the draft assembly.

So Jinnah did not found a secular republic

This is all incredibly different to Turkiye and the key decisive role Ataturk played for many years in its modern establishment and early guidance.

Thank you bro @Nilgiri , it's awesome to have a dot of knowledge in the mid of all ignorance around us .

Let me tell you why Pakistan failed until now compared to Turkey . one of the best things Ataturk did that in the first years of the republic he separated the army and the army command from the state management , yes they are some ex-military around him but they never deceived the state like the modern corrupt generals . Ataturk and even Inonu didn't promote themselves as a military leaders . Unfortunately all went to shit with the successful and failed coups .

The main reason why Pakistan failed not because of Islam but because of the armed force deep intervention in everything in Pakistan . Pakistani generals are corrupt to the bone and that's well known , let's not forget the massive US and CIA support to the Pakistani generals through it's history until they throw them after the so called war on terror .
 

GoatsMilk

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this is my problem we know what they are but does the wider public knows who they are ?? and btw how the fuck Kilicdaroglu get to the position to lead the party when there was way better candidate was there. how when emine ülker tarhan the former supreme court jury (who btw was nationalist as well as secular ) was trying to investigate ergenekon and balyoz she was not supported and then force to leave ???

60% of Turkey hasn't even read one book including the Quran. How can a people that do not read outside of tabliod trash begin to comprehend what is being done to them?

The other problem you have is to comprehend such things takes a certain level of reasoning ability and also the willingness to accept you've been wrong. How can people who spent 20 years supporting political islamists revert from that course? They won't, they would rather bury the guy bringing the truth then to accept it. This doesnt include the little fanatical shitheads who have been brainwashed from birth, they are gone and its quite right to say future jihadists.

Same with CHP supporters, when i was in Turkey some of my cousins were saying imamoglu was their hero, but i said how can he be a hero when he's affiliated to many enemies of the state including pkk/kurdistan promoters? When you point this out, they change the subject.

So this won't be resolved by trying to wake people up, it can only be resolved by those who understand such things working together.
 

GoatsMilk

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The lady amberin zaman is a "journalist" who spouts nothing but pro pkk propaganda and everything she writes about Turks and Turkey is slanderous and hateful. Why would the leader of Ataturk's party want to meet her and be in a photo with her? And how can the Turkish people be so "asleep" that these politicians who the Turkish taxpayer pays for not realise these people are treasonous? The CHP leader with these photoshoots is basically laughing at the Turkish people. He's basically implying that the Turkish people are so ignorant and stupid that i can even take photo shoots with the enemies of the entire Turkish race and islamic civilisation and they wont even notice it. He has no respect for Turkey or its people.

Also keep in mind a shitty terrible journalist finds it easy to meet with all these terrorists and conduct interviews, but Turkish security cannot find them?

Also ask yourselves this the other agent imamoglu says fool and he goes to jail, meanwhile the actual CHP leader constantly associates with pro pkk entities and nothing happens to him.
 
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Ryder

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I never said, Turkiye is my dumping ground!

and i never advocated for so called multiculturalism!
the very idea of proper integration means refugees or migrants accepting local identity, not to become a failed society like UK.

and saying, multiculturalism led to the destruction of empire is just a circular reasoning and wont get you anywhere.
the very idea of having an empire means conquering others people land,
it is like saying, the only reason empire broke down because it was build in the first place.

if you want to keep it so PURE, then you shouldnt try to build an empire in the first place!

anyway, i dont think this conversation would be fruitful. because for you, RACE MATTER!
which tells it all.
have a good day.

He has a point because Humans are tribal by nature.

Its in instinct even if countries today are nation states.

Tribalism exists every where from your name, city, to clan, ethnic group and race.

Even if Islam was sent to unite humanity to believe in 1 God to forego lineage, class and race.

Human instincts proved too strong to becaise humans are a stubborn species we like power and domination.
 

Ryder

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Im best friends with a Somali guy we went to school he told me he even has no hope in Somalia.

Tribalism is so engrained in the culture that they will butcher each for the smallest thing.

Doesnt matter how similar everybody is in Somalia everybody is different from tribe and clan.
 

Ryder

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Thank you bro @Nilgiri , it's awesome to have a dot of knowledge in the mid of all ignorance around us .

Let me tell you why Pakistan failed until now compared to Turkiye . one of the best things Ataturk did that in the first years of the republic he separated the army and the army command from the state management , yes they are some ex-military around him but they never deceived the state like the modern corrupt generals . Ataturk and even Inonu didn't promote themselves as a military leaders . Unfortunately all went to shit with the successful and failed coups .

The main reason why Pakistan failed not because of Islam but because of the armed force deep intervention in everything in Pakistan . Pakistani generals are corrupt to the bone and that's well known , let's not forget the massive US and CIA support to the Pakistani generals through it's history until they throw them after the so called war on terror .

People think was Inonu was actually a fanatic secularist.

Thats not the case his wife actually he said he would take his small quran with him read it many times.

He did actually kept it private because it could be a scandal at the time.

As much as conservatives love to curse at him the man actually did practice his religion.

About Ataturk he was a Sunni Muslim but overtime he gave up on Islam and religion in general.

Was he a agnostic, atheist or a deist well we dont know because his views changed over time and its still up for debate.
 

Nilgiri

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Thank you bro @Nilgiri , it's awesome to have a dot of knowledge in the mid of all ignorance around us .

Let me tell you why Pakistan failed until now compared to Turkiye . one of the best things Ataturk did that in the first years of the republic he separated the army and the army command from the state management , yes they are some ex-military around him but they never deceived the state like the modern corrupt generals . Ataturk and even Inonu didn't promote themselves as a military leaders . Unfortunately all went to shit with the successful and failed coups .

The main reason why Pakistan failed not because of Islam but because of the armed force deep intervention in everything in Pakistan . Pakistani generals are corrupt to the bone and that's well known , let's not forget the massive US and CIA support to the Pakistani generals through it's history until they throw them after the so called war on terror .

It's a long complicated subject to get into.

Of course Islam has nothing to do with a country's political system failure. That can happen in any context with any religion(s) in society.

Rather the failure is often the political system's choice to establish a religious identity as the raison d'etre and pre-eminence for the state.

What happens then is politics just more easily uses religion as a vessel for justifying corruption, unfairness, injustice (that are the inevitable fruits of politics anywhere). You just end up adding an extra massive corrupt "freebie" to existing identity politics/issues already there (that already generate enough corruption by themselves) .

This makes the accountability of the system extremely brittle and opaque with time...more than it otherwise would be (given religion and faith is such a strong matter of the heart and mind among so many).

That is why the Turkish military inherited from Ataturk's founding a strong secular basis...so that even when it intervened (in what it said was to re-correct Turkish politics back to Ataturk's principles), it did so on that secular basis.

Very different to Pakistan's military which is far more factional (having a mix of secular elements and islamist elements). Hence its interventions have often taken a different course, notably seen during Zia's tenure.

It just never developed a staunchly secular ideological doctrine like the Turkish military (under aegis of Ataturk's founding principles)...as the aegis just was not coherently defined at the start and veered fairly quickly (in the Pakistan republic setup) to some significant enough degree of Islamism.

There have been undercurrents in recent times in Turkish military vis a vis existence and undermining action of FETO that some of my Turkish friends have told me about.....but that has come about from the drift and passage of time from Ataturk's founding (and the rise of toxic geopolitical actions from foreign powers post cold war). Turkiye will have to learn from and become more attuned to this to correct and rectify this.

But it is again very different situation to Pakistan as the Pakistani military simply did not develop this kind of staunch doctrine from the get go and has essentially been a "default FETO" system IMO from the get go. This is large part of why the Pakistani military also then was able to continually and easily interfere (and now entrench) in Pakistan's politics using Islamism as the basis to do so, as the republic itself is an Islamic republic.
 

Ryder

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Fun fact about Turkish politics is that Kenan Evren was born in 1917 when Turkiye was still under Ottoman rule.
 

Kedikesenfare

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People think was Inonu was actually a fanatic secularist.

Thats not the case his wife actually he said he would take his small quran with him read it many times.

He did actually kept it private because it could be a scandal at the time.

As much as conservatives love to curse at him the man actually did practice his religion.

About Ataturk he was a Sunni Muslim but overtime he gave up on Islam and religion in general.

Was he a agnostic, atheist or a deist well we dont know because his views changed over time and its still up for debate.
Don't defend Inönü. He started the destruction of Atatürk's legacy. When people dislike Atatürk in private exchanges, 9 out of 10 times they actually mean İnönü's policies.

Personally, I can't wrap my head around the fact that CHP in 2022 is still described as 'Atatürk's party'. Just disgraceful.

Kemalism died with Atatürk.
 

Ryder

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Don't defend Inönü. He started the destruction of Atatürk's legacy. When people dislike Atatürk in private exchanges, 9 out of 10 times they actually mean İnönü's policies.

Personally, I can't wrap my head around the fact that CHP in 2022 is still described as 'Atatürk's party'. Just disgraceful.

Kemalism died with Atatürk.

Im not actually defending him just wanted to post it thats all.

If I believe chp in its current form got founded in the early 90s.
 

Afif

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He has a point because Humans are tribal by nature.

Its in instinct even if countries today are nation states.

Tribalism exists every where from your name, city, to clan, ethnic group and race.

Even if Islam was sent to unite humanity to believe in 1 God to forego lineage, class and race.

Human instincts proved too strong to becaise humans are a stubborn species we like power and domination.
Yes it does, but we all know this is a very toxic and dangerous aspect of our nature.
it should be fought against and contained as much as possible, not accepted.

Forget about religion, the fact that we are living in 21th century pre modern era and able to form current nation states, that is precisely because our tribal instinct does not dominate our socio cultural and socio political systems anymore.
I mean, it still has quite strong present obviously, but not like what it used to be in the past!
and we should try our best to keep it that way just for the shake of modernity and civilization, if not for the religion.

My objection to him was, it seems he was saying we should accept it because it is in our nature.
 
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Ryder

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Yes it does, but we all know this is a very toxic and dangerous aspect of our nature.
it should be fought against and contained as much as possible, not accepted.

Forget about religion, the fact that we are living in 21th century modern era and able to form nation states, that is precisely because our tribal instinct does not dominate our socio cultural and socio political systems anymore.
I mean, it still has quite strong present obviously, but not like what it used to be in the past!
and we should try our best to keep it that way just for the shake of modernity and civilization, if not for the religion.

My objection to him was, it seems he was saying we should accept it because it is in our nature.

You forgetting how racist the Turks are towards Arabs.

How racist Arabs are towards Turks.

You are undestimating how racist societies can be.

We tend to think only Europeans or White people can be racist but thats not the case.
 

Ryder

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This is also for the Progressive West and the Liberals

Enlightened Denmark showed a picture of Moroccan players being monkeys just for hugging their mothers.

So "tolerant"
 

Anastasius

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Religion should never drive politics and politics should absolutely never drive religion. Both are poisonous and is a major reason why the US Constitution's separation of church and state is supposed to work both ways. Let the believers to their own devices and the politicians to theirs.

My personal belief is that not enough politicians worldwide are afraid of their own countrymen, afraid of death. If every single one of them knew for a fact that they would end up on a pike if they tried to screw over the nation, you would have many more well-behaved patriots.

A politician's punishment for failure must be fifty times harsher than the punishment of an ordinary man to make for a functional state. Level of power should scale proportionally with the level of suffering you will endure should you betray your country.
 

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You forgetting how racist the Turks are towards Arabs.

How racist Arabs are towards Turks.

You are undestimating how racist societies can be.

We tend to think only Europeans or White people can be racist but thats not the case.
I dont think how Turks towards Arabs is a type of racist because we will not had racist to a arab if he speak Turkish and accept Turkish culture.

Nureddin Nebati is an arab,i willnt against him just because that.

But a Black people even they speak english and had American citizenship,the white dont admit they are same people
 

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