TR Air Defence Programs

[Ecderha]

A nice comparison from @SavunmaSanayiST.com

View attachment 47192

barak-8 range given in picture is for Single-Stage rocket engine

if we compare it correctly Double-Stage rocket engine it is 150km

 

[Ecderha]

When deploying siper near cities within Turkey. Doesn't the booster falling from the missile pose a safety problem, as it may fall on someone and kill him.

Think it from other perspective of "safety problem". Enemy launch missile which will hit and kill many people.........
So Turkiye army launch Siper for intercept enemy missile...........................few moment later enemy missile is shot down by Siper
Many people will be save it. But in you logic at same time Siper booster will fall on someone or fall on some animal?! What you talking about?

 

[UkroTurk]

barak-8 range given in picture is for Single-Stage rocket engine

if we compare it correctly Double-Stage rocket engine it is 150km


View attachment 47204

Barak 8 is very slow missile . İt's speed just mach 2 that's why it could reach longer range.
Please Recall speed of ESSM.
Unfortunately no official data about HİSAR/SİPER.

 

[UkroTurk]

Think it from other perspective of "safety problem". Enemy launch missile which will hit and kill many people.........
So Turkiye army launch Siper for intercept enemy missile...........................few moment later enemy missile is shot down by Siper
Many people will be save it. But in you logic at same time Siper booster will fall on someone or fall on some animal?! What you talking about?

What would you say about SAMP-T with Aster 15/30 that have huge boosters? SAMP-T is very operational.

 

[Ecderha]

What would you say about SAMP-T with Aster 15/30 that have huge boosters? SAMP-T is very operational.

I just reply for post of "RaptorF22".... "Doesn't the booster falling from the missile pose a safety problem, as it may fall on someone and kill him. "

 

[Yasar_TR]

Knock knock anybody there?

Can someone confirm the length of the SİPER?

470cm ?, 530 cm?, 580cm?
@Yasar what is your opinion about it?

View attachment 47198

I think @Anmdt has given the answer to your post here.
But I would like to add couple of points :
1. The booster used in Siper block 0 doesn’t necessarily mean that it will be used in subsequent blocks. It can be more streamlined and lengthened to accommodate quad packing. Use of special fuel mixes and decreasing overall weight by using composite materials may enhance range as well.
2. Siper missile doesn’t look much longer and Infact looks more slender than the quad packable ESSM which has a diameter of 25.4cm and a length of 364cm. According to below info Hisar O is 4.2m in length and not too wide in the bottom fin section.

So it is quite feasible to assume that the Siper block 0 missile derived from Hisar-O, will be quad packable in MIDAS VLS , in spite of it’s rather bulbous looking booster. (Pro rata rough measurement of the booster diameter doesn’t rule out quad packability)

HİSAR-RF SGTM Firing Test and the Differences Between the SİPER B1 Missile

On February 19, 2022, President of Defence Industries (SSB) İsmail DEMİR announced on his social media account that the HİSAR-O+ System successfully destroyed a target in the first firing test carried out with the RF (Radio Frequency) Seeker model. DEMİR said,

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Saithan]

Barak 8 is very slow missile . İt's speed just mach 2 that's why it could reach longer range.
Please Recall speed of ESSM.
Unfortunately no official data about HİSAR/SİPER.

But it would also be cost effective right ?

does speed matter if you have spotted a missile at max range ?

e.g if katyush missile or any other is launched from 30 km in Syria, Iraq etc. How fast can we destroy it ?

if we spot a jet and want to shoot it down I can understand the need for higher speed.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Barak 8 is very slow missile . İt's speed just mach 2 that's why it could reach longer range.
Please Recall speed of ESSM.
Unfortunately no official data about HİSAR/SİPER.

ESSM has a “top” speed close to 4 Mach. It uses a dual thrust engine for propulsion. That means the fuel has two components :
1. A fast burning component that gives initial high speed
2. A slow burning component that sustains high speed.
Our hisar and Siper range missiles use dual Pulse engines. That means, the missile uses half the fuel to achieve a high speed first then coasts. When it has acquired the target, the second part of fuel is used to gain speed and reach 3.5-4 Mach speed for terminal phase in order not give any chance of missing the target.

 

[UkroTurk]

e.g if katyush missile or any other is launched from 30 km in Syria, Iraq etc. How fast can we destroy it ?

Do you think HİSAR or Siper could engage artillery rockets that are tiny and mach 3 Speed? I doubt it. Maybe it could.

 

[Afif]

ESSM has a “top” speed close to 4 Mach. It uses a dual thrust engine for propulsion. That means the fuel has two components :
1. A fast burning component that gives initial high speed
2. A slow burning component that sustains high speed.
Our hisar and Siper range missiles use dual Pulse engines. That means, the missile uses half the fuel to achieve a high speed first then coasts. When it has acquired the target, the second part of fuel is used to gain speed and reach 3.5-4 Mach speed for terminal phase in order not give any chance of missing the target.

i think that could be relevant.

 

[Agha Sher]

Do you think HİSAR or Siper could engage artillery rockets that are tiny and mach 3 Speed? I doubt it. Maybe it could.

They are too expensive to be used against artillery rockets.

 

[Baryshx]

It captured the image well.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563222172822568961

 

[Yasar_TR]

They are too expensive to be used against artillery rockets.

@UkroTurk
Iron dome missile system of Israel is built to defend against incoming mortar and artillery shells and rockets as well as ballistic missiles and air breathing cruise missiles and planes.
With the exception of unguided 122mm multi launch rocket systems artillery rockets like trg230 and trg300 are not that cheap. Even if they may be cheap to use, you have to think about what it will cost you to let them slip through and destroy a tank or armoured vehicle with many lives in it.
A layered Air Defence system consisting of Siper, Hisar, Sungur, Korkut when completed should be capable of stopping most of the artillery shells and rockets as well as other missile threats, no matter the cost. In effect it should work like the iron dome and intercept even the mortar shells irrespective of the cost.

 

[Agha Sher]

@UkroTurk
Iron dome missile system of Israel is built to defend against incoming mortar and artillery shells and rockets as well as ballistic missiles and air breathing cruise missiles and planes.
With the exception of unguided 122mm multi launch rocket systems artillery rockets like trg230 and trg300 are not that cheap. Even if they may be cheap to use, you have to think about what it will cost you to let them slip through and destroy a tank or armoured vehicle with many lives in it.
A layered Air Defence system consisting of Siper, Hisar, Sungur, Korkut when completed should be capable of stopping most of the artillery shells and rockets as well as other missile threats, no matter the cost. In effect it should work like the iron dome and intercept even the mortar shells irrespective of the cost.

Iron Dome was specifically developed to engage such threats. Thus, economics was very important. A Tamir missile costs 100k. Hisar and Siper will be too expensive to use against artillery shells. Another low cost system need to be developed

 

[UkroTurk]

Iron Dome was specifically developed to engage such threats. Thus, economics was very important. A Tamir missile costs 100k. Hisar and Siper will be too expensive to use against artillery shells. Another low cost system need to be developed

Korkut CIWS ideal for this role.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Iron Dome was specifically developed to engage such threats. Thus, economics was very important. A Tamir missile costs 100k. Hisar and Siper will be too expensive to use against artillery shells. Another low cost system need to be developed

Of course economics are important. But when it is human lives in question and valuable assets you wish to protect, economics go out of the window. You may have to use a 100thousand dollar missile to stop a 1thousand dollar shell.
You may have to use a hisar or even Siper missile to intercept a trg300 class artillery rocket. You need to build in to your AD system the right algorithms, to know when to fire which missile. Israelis spent insane amounts of money to intercept 90-95% of incoming mortars, shells and missiles with their iron dome system. Even came to a position where they could run out of ammo on some of them.
Your layered defence system and it’s related AI should make the correct split second decisions about which missile to fire against which threat to keep it as economical as possible.

 

[Windchime]

When deploying siper near cities within Turkey. Doesn't the booster falling from the missile pose a safety problem, as it may fall on someone and kill him.

When the Japanese planned to build 2 Aegis Ashore systems a few years ago, there were concerns about SM-3 and SM-6 boosters falling down on civilian areas and causing collateral damage. As such, plans to build Aegis Ashores were met with considerable opposition. In the end, they've replaced their plans with 2 Aegis destroyers equipped with the same radar (AN/SPY-7), for that exact reason. Though we should consider two key reasons the Japanese were able to replace a land based SAM system with a naval system : Any kind of ballistic or long range missile threats the Japanese face are from the west across the ocean. Also, the Japanese hold air and maritime superiority in the region their Aegis destroyers assigned for BMD will operate in, against NK and the Chinese.

In comparison, Türkiye doesn't have the same luxury in terms of geography when compared to the case I've mentioned above.

When faced against the Greeks, they don't possess ballistic missiles afaik, so that's one less thing to be worried about for the Turks. Their aerial targets could be shot down above the Aegean, though the problem is that TDK ships will be faced against Greek area denial in the region, which means those ships might not be able to allocate their resources, or could not be in position suitable for shooting down aerial threats(eg: Greek air force fighters performing deep strike) headed towards the Turkish main land, at a given time. On the other side of Anatolia, in case Türkiye goes into escalated conflict against Arab countries, ballistic missiles are a bigger threat and there are cities and military bases you can't cover from the sea, especially when those missiles are launched from Northern Levant. You just have to deal with it. Fortunately, threat from this region is not of great concern, at least as of now. Caucasian countries are also generally friendly with Türkiye with the exception of Armenia, but they also aren't much of a concern either.

There is a case in which a naval air and missile defence could act as a replacement for the ground based SAMs and that is if the Russian military were to attack Türkiye across the Black Sea. If Türkiye were to seriously consider a high altitude, long range missile defence capability against Russian ballistic, cruise and hypersonic missile threats, a sea based defence could be favorable considering the collateral damage ABM missiles, which often needs big boosters, could inflict to the civilians. Though in such case, the survivability of said naval AMD forces are of concern, so overall, its not as easy to come up with a definite answer.

Bruh, if this thing is fired from a civilian area aint nobody going to be outside for sure. It will probably be marshall law and all civilians will be sheltered. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

Not all attacks could be warned early enough that you could guarantee there would be no civilian collateral damage, which is the exact reason why the things I've explained above happened. Though we should always consider the opportunity cost of such balance. Most of the times, the benefit of AMD is much greater than the possibilities of civilian collateral damage that could be caused by the missile's booster.

 

[UkroTurk]

When SAM (without booster) hits the target for instance a fighter, the fighter also falls onto residential buildings. So we shouldnt destroy the target?

 

[UkroTurk]

Guys don't worry about booster when you have S-300

Credit to @Ecderha

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563859881370812418

 

[Brokengineer]

Guys don't worry about booster when you have S-300

Credit to @Ecderha

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563859881370812418

I am sure Greek ones working well at least when not used.