TR Air Defence Programs

[RaptorF22]

When deploying siper near cities within Turkey. Doesn't the booster falling from the missile pose a safety problem, as it may fall on someone and kill him.

 

[Bmx98]

When deploying siper near cities within Turkey. Doesn't the booster falling from the missile pose a safety problem, as it may fall on someone and kill him.

Bruh, if this thing is fired from a civilian area aint nobody going to be outside for sure. It will probably be marshall law and all civilians will be sheltered. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

 

[Afif]

I'm not speculating. I write the officially announced ranges and add the values in the official explanations. You didn't need to calculate the burn times of the engines of other missiles to prove the given ranges of these missiles.

The range in hisar-Rf is of course an estimate if you look at the range scale and This is also a controversial subject and has the potential to create good technical discussions under this topic but the truth is that the information about size difference between Hisar-Rf used in the Siper Blk1 and original Hisar-Rf isn't depend on official information or technical truths. What is certain is that the fins have been enlarged to compensate for the negative moment created by the Booster but It is not possible to comment on the dimensions by putting the photos side by side so we interpret based on the knowledge that the two missiles are the same.

Actually one of the essential way to calculate the missile range is to calculate motor burn time! There are other important factors of course!

However your added values probably incorrect ! It is very likely that ismail demir's statement (that you quoted in another similer post ) about hisar a+ and hisar o+ range and altitude increas actually reffering to the first officially announced ranges which was 10 km for hisar a and 20 km for hisar o ( this data can be found in roketsan's old oficial pages ).
And this understanding is more supported by evidence as he said 'we added more 5 km range and more 2 3 km altitude made it hisar a+ and 5 km more altitude and 10 km more range to hisar o AND made it his around o+ AND WE CAN REACH WITH HISAR O+ UP TO 15KM' otherwise his statement about the altitude of hisar o+ being 15km with 5 km increas doesn't hold up,
As the hisar o+ oficial altitude being 15km was already on the aselsan web way before the statement! So he was definitely reffering to the previously announced ranges of 10km for hisar a and 20km for hisar o. Now, if correctly values are added in latest oficial statement on previously announced ranges according to ofacials statement the hisar a+ will have increas of 5 km in range up to 15 km compared to original range of 10 and hisar o+ will have increase of 10km up to 30km compared to the original range of 20 km.

 

[UkroTurk]

If "it has 20cm longer booster than Atmaca" rumour is true. I think Atmaca's booster has 90cm length so Siper's booster has 110 cm length with my calculation Siper B1 has ~7 meter length. View attachment 35158

According to upper post , SIPER seems longer than @SavunmaSanayiST.com claimed. 470cm length is confirmed?

530cm PAC-3 max range against slow targets is 60km.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

booster burning is time 8 second ? are you sure ?

The Booster of Atmaca burns for 8-9 seconds on average yes, but we are not sure if it has same features in Siper Blk1, although it is similar in volume. The Atmaca's booster was designed to give a subsonic 750kg missile initial speed. Siper Blk1 on the other hand, is a supersonic air defense system so much stronger thrust must be provided in such a short time. For this reason, the thrust that the this booster will give per second may have been adjusted in accordance to needs of an air defence missiles speed and range requirements. This will shorten the burning time as well.

For example, the 2m huge booster in the Aster-30 burn around 3.5s for very fast acceleration according to open source information and make 30km missile reach 100km. We may not be able to provide the necessary kinetic energy to reach Hisar-Rf to 100km by burning the 90-110cm long booster 8s. In the first trials, maybe the same Atmaca booster was used, but in later trials, such corrections may have been made to 70km to reach 100km.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Astra Mk1 Demonstrated long-range against Low RCS Target – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Banshee target drone has a 0.5m2 -1.5m2 radar cross section according to the format it is used as.
So at around 100km a target that has RCS that is similar or less than a Rafale can be shot.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Actually one of the essential way to calculate the missile range is to calculate motor burn time! There are other important factors of course!

No it is not. Don't make people teach you basic physics or chemical's nature here. Missile weights, the amount of fuel burned per unit time, the performance of the seeker head tech at the terminal stage, level of thrust per unit time, the chemicals used in the fuel change everything. For example, how do you know if your solid fuel is ADN, AZP or IPDI? Do you think that you can find the difference in the level of thrust that these fuels will provide to the same missiles by making primary school level simple ratios?

 

[Yasar_TR]

The Booster of Atmaca burns for 8-9 seconds on average yes, but we are not sure if it has same features in Siper Blk1, although it is similar in volume. The Atmaca's booster was designed to give a subsonic 750kg missile initial speed. Siper Blk1 on the other hand, is a supersonic air defense system so much stronger thrust must be provided in such a short time. For this reason, the thrust that the this booster will give per second may have been adjusted in accordance to needs of an air defence missiles speed and range requirements. This will shorten the burning time as well.

For example, the 2m huge booster in the Aster-30 burn around 3.8s for very fast acceleration according to open source information and make 30km missile reach 100km. We may not be able to provide the necessary kinetic energy to reach Hisar-Rf to 100km by burning the 90cm long booster 8s. In the first trials, maybe the same Atmaca booster was used, but in later trials, such corrections may have been made to 70km to reach 100km.

It is not very healthy to calculate distance according to booster burn times. Especially not healthy comparing different missiles altogether.

There are many factors that govern how far the missile can go.

1. the mixture used in the same booster can be different for different missiles.
2. aerodynamic design of the missile the booster is propelling has a big influence on the range.
3. Weight of the total missile is a big deciding factor.
4. speed of which the missile reaches in booster phase can vary a great deal depending on above parameters. This in turn effects range.
5. slight changes in booster shape size and fin dimensions will alter overall aerodynamic design and speed and range.

Currently only concrete thing we have in hand is : a missile that can kill a small target with a small RCS at a distance of nearly 100km.
Now it needs to be tested against a supersonic target, then a high speed target at sea-level as well.

 

[Afif]

No it is not. Don't make people teach you basic physics or chemical's nature here. Missile weights, the amount of fuel burned per unit time, the performance of the seeker head tech at the terminal stage, level of thrust per unit time, the chemicals used in the fuel change everything. For example, how do you know if your solid fuel is ADN, AZP or IPDI? Do you think that you can find the difference in the level of thrust that these fuels will provide to the same missiles by making primary school level simple ratios?

You just assumed you have to teach me basics physics! I never said I didn't count those factors!

in fact, the performance of the seeker on hisar o was limiting the range before due to fast heating and to solve that they put a conical cap on the seeker just like on IRIS T SLM

fuel is very likely to be ADN based as roketsan developed that tech here is the link

Roketsan - R&D and Technology Management at ROKETSAN

www.roketsan.com.tr

Size of the fuel tank is down below in the picture and Here is the size of missiles.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/hisar-rf-sgtm-firing-test-and-the-differences-between-the-siper-b1-missile-4986&ved=2ahUKEwjKtbSoiuj5AhXH_XMBHYS7CPIQFnoECAoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2C8XCtwQcZS2TUm82Q9Hmj

and it seems you missed the most important word in my post which is 'speculations' I said 'these are my speculations.' i am not claiming to be expert.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

However your added values is probably false! It is very likely that ismail demir's statement (that you quoted in another similer post ) about hisar a+ and hisar o+ range and altitude increas actually reffering to the first officially announced ranges which was 10 km for hisar a and 20 km for hisar o ( this data can be found in roketsan's old oficial pages ).
And this understanding is more supported by evidence as he said 'we added more 5 km range and more 2 3 km altitude to hisar a and 5 km more altitude and 10 km more range to hisar o AND WE CAN REACH WITH HISAR O UP TO 15KM' ( it is more logical to claim that he was actually referring to hisar a+ and o+ without adding +. And it is very likely he meant by that increas and development in range and altitude how both system become + )

becouse that statement was after the last firing test ( or after the prior test of the last firing ) of hisar o+ missile in 2021. ( as we can be certain last three firing in 2021 all was hisar o+ as the new conical nose was visible ) otherwise his statement about the altitude of hisar o+ ( which he mentioned by without + after the latest firing ) being 15km with 5 km increas doesn't hold up,
As the hisar o+ oficial altitude being 15km was already on the aselsan web way before the statement! So according to ofacials statement hisar a+ will have increas of 5 km in range up to 15 km compared to original range of 10 and hisar o+ will have increase of 10km up to 30km compared to the original range of 20 km.

I got tired of reading your those sentences because I had to read your know-it-all assumptions again. What you wrote is not the kind that is worth answering for me but it is useful to know the fact instead of disinformation.

Hisar-O's previously announced official brochure range was 25km and Hisar-A's was 15km. Later, these ranges were reduced to 20km and 10km. First ranges was 15km and 8km. These ranges were changed time to time before they announced efforts to + upgrade. Later, with the A+ and O+ updates, Ismail Demir announced the new performance increase values. I wrote the new ranges obtained according to these values by taking the highest figures announced in oast period. If there is speculation, I think it looks like you are the one trying to do it.

 

[Afif]

Astra Mk1 Demonstrated long-range against Low RCS Target – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Banshee target drone has a 0.5m2 -1.5m2 radar cross section according to the format it is used as.
So at around 100km a target that has RCS that is similar or less than a Rafale can be shot.

Nice! Thanks! I read that article too! But it didn't cross my mind!

It is likely this ERIS derived radar will be more powerful than aselsan STR. And STR according to defenceturkey magazine can detect 122mm rocket form 100km. Now 122mm rocket has a rcs of 0.01m.

So I think this ERIS derived radar ( assuming it will be more powerful )can shoot down rafale from 200km ( If it has the long range interceptor )

 

[Cabatli_TR]

You just assumed you have to teach me basics physics! I never said I didn't count those factors! in fact, the performance of the seeker on hisar o was limiting the range before due to fast heating and to solve that they put a conical cap on the seeker just like on IRIS T SLM and you can guess the fual tank sizero by analyzing the photos and the fual is very likely to be ADN as it was stated tubitak was working on it ( Ithis is not illogical to think roketsan will also have the same techology ) and it seems you missed the most important word in my post which is 'speculations' I said 'these are my speculations.' Before jumping on someone's post just carefully read first what he wrote!

Then you are disproving your own truths according to the words you set yourself. So the most efficient way to calculate the range of a missile is not just about the burning time, so many other factors play vital roles that you didn't consider while comparing other missiles' burning time to give lecture about Hisar's ranges, right? By the way, don't tell me the story of Hisar's conical cover here, because that's not the case. These are the issues that were shared here years ago with their photos. The subject discussed here is about those who put forward the burning time of a rocket engine of a different missile and are speculating the rangea of Hisar and then approve the officially given figures as if you discovered something special or approving other members posts based on disinformation you spread. You're doing such behaviors on other topics, then we have to correct your misinformation about Aselsan, IRST and some other issues about ranges of the missiles and missile chamicals.

 

[Afif]

I got tired of reading your those sentences because I had to read your know-it-all assumptions again. What you wrote is not the kind that is worth answering for me but it is useful to know the fact instead of disinformation.

Hisar-O's previously announced official brochure range was 25km and Hisar-A's was 15km. Later, these ranges were reduced to 20km and 10km. First ranges was 15km and 8km. These ranges were changed time to time before they announced efforts to + upgrade. Later, with the A+ and O+ updates, Ismail Demir announced the new performance increase values. I wrote the new ranges obtained according to these values by taking the highest figures announced in oast period. If there is speculation, I think it looks like you are the one trying to do it.

It actually you who is making invalid assumption! My explanation is more logical considering ismail demir's statement and all the documents had been released and all the announcements has been made. And there was no miss information about aselsan or tfx. there you assummed things that I didn't said or meant and tried to put your words in my mouth.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

It actually you who are making invalid assumption! My explanation is more logical considering ismail demir's statement and all the documents had been released and all the announcements has been made.

I told you what happened with those ranges and we are the ones who share these official statements and revealed documents that you read here but You're the one who are tried to be I know everything-style and comparing the burning times of other engines of other missiles by saying I am simply speculating and then acting as an approve chair of given figures with arrogant behaviors by starting from a false point to discussion and tried to change the subject when you bumped your head on a wall. Don't tell me stories here. I warned you in Tfx subject about your disinformation you caused as well. Saying i am just speculating doesn't justify you.

 

[Rodeo]

Nice! I read that article too! But it didn't cross my mind! Now, let me share with something that I have! It is likely this ERIS derived radar will have more powerful than aselsan STR. And STR according to defenceturkey magazine can detect 122mm rocket form 100km. Now 122mm rocket has a rcs of 0.01m. So I think this ERIS derived radar ( assuming it will be more powerful )can shoot down rafale from 200km ( If it has the long range interceptor )

Not to be pedantic but could you use fewer exclamation marks in your posts? It has the opposite effect what you might be hoping for. It makes your response look more of an angry rant than a quality counter-argument. I'm afraid some of the users of this forum has this trait and makes me not want to read their posts. And while at it, please try to divide your texts into paragraphs. It's easier to the eye and to the mind.

 

[UkroTurk]

Knock knock anybody there?

Can someone confirm the length of the SİPER?

470cm ?, 530 cm?, 580cm?
@Yasar what is your opinion about it?

 

[Afif]

Not to be pedantic but could you use fewer exclamation points in your posts? It has the opposite effect what might be hoping for. It makes your response look more of an angry rant than a quality counter-argument. I'm afraid some of the users of this forum has this trait and makes me not want to read their posts. And while at it, please try to divide your texts into paragraphs. It's easier to the eye and the mind.

Oh sorry I usually mean agreebleness with exclamaiton mark. Anyway, I took your recommendation. I am not gonna use them in the future.

 

[AWP]

congrats for the Siper new achievement

1- I am pretty sure that Siper block 1 will reach 120-140 km and will be quadpacked . this will literally change the turkish navel warfare in the future .

2- is the Siper radar ErAlp is a search and fire engagement radar like the Patriot & Samp/T systems ? and can the ERIS radar do same as ErAlp radar ?

 

[Saithan]

Banshee Jet 80+ Aerial Target Drone, UK

The Banshee Jet 80+ is part of the Banshee family of aerial targets manufactured by UK-based defence technology company QinetiQ.

www.naval-technology.com

Info on the banshee

we’ve seen quite a few small diameter propulsions made by turkish defence companies, at the time I was wondering what they’re going to power and for how long. But could they be used as boosters, which in return rises the question, does the booster have to have a greater diameter than the missile?

 

[Anmdt]

View attachment 47197
According to upper post , SIPER seems longer than @SavunmaSanayiST.com claimed. 470cm length is confirmed?

View attachment 47196
530cm PAC-3 max range against slow targets is 60km.

My post from November 2021. Length of the missile without booster shouldn't exceed 5 meters thus, it has to be around that length. (470-480cm). With booster 5.5-5.6 meters.

Air Defence Programs

https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-test-fires-air-defense-missile-siper-169170 I've noticed that several of the news outlets are giving misleading information. They're calling the missile launched Siper, and I've read you guys input on it as well. So question is going to be, is Siper the...

defencehub.live

Also in the last launch, we can see a 20 feet container (6.1 meters) on right behind the missile launcher platform, with a proportion we can see the missile is about 5.4 to 5.6 meters.