TR Economy & Updates

[YeşilVatan]

These are not classes.
Ak Party got their +12mn members and 43% support by recruiting members of parliement from every group of people making up the nation. Just the other day president of the nation met up with a group of Romans in a big event. In other words a gypsy is no different than an Istanbulite gentleman in the eye of the chief of state, the government and the nation. Now where is the class.

Actually, you are wrong about the definition of social classes.

"A social class is a grouping of people into a set of hierarchical social categories, the most common being the upper, middle and lower classes. Membership in a social class can for example be dependent on education, wealth, occupation, income, and belonging to a particular subculture or social network."

I studied sociology. Granted I didn't finish the school on that but I know the definition of the concept of social class.

Padişah also held Ayak Divanı. Does that make us believe that he though his viziers were equal to a lowly sipahi? Of course not. Is the Cengiz İnşaat guy in any way equal to your Getir courier? No he isn't.

I'll give you the most basic example. If I don't pay my electricity bills, the state comes and punishes me. But a large group of people steal electricity and not get punished. They get preferential treatment purely because of who they were born to. If that is not social stratification I don't know what is!

 

[Zafer]

Actually, you are wrong about the definition of social classes.

"A social class is a grouping of people into a set of hierarchical social categories, the most common being the upper, middle and lower classes. Membership in a social class can for example be dependent on education, wealth, occupation, income, and belonging to a particular subculture or social network."

I studied sociology. Granted I didn't finish the school on that but I know the definition of the concept of social class.

Padişah also held Ayak Divanı. Does that make us believe that he though his viziers were equal to a lowly sipahi? Of course not. Is the Cengiz İnşaat guy in any way equal to your Getir courier? No he isn't.

I'll give you the most basic example. If I don't pay my electricity bills, the state comes and punishes me. But a large group of people steal electricity and not get punished. They get preferential treatment purely because of who they were born to. If that is not social stratification I don't know what is!

If you define every group of people with some similarities as a class you get nowhere.
In Türkiye we do not have classes in the sense that a worker's children become workers. Or a farmer's children become farmers.

 

[YeşilVatan]

If you define every group of people with some similarities as a class you get nowhere.
In Türkiye we do not have classes in the sense that a worker's children becomes workers. Or a farmer's children becomes farmers.

I may not go nowhere but what you think social class is is not social class. You're thinking about some kind of hereditary caste system. I'm talking about somewhat fluid groups. Example: Kemalist bureucrat/soldiers owned the country in the 90s, but no more. Being a public servant was very socially and economically rewarding back then. Now the most rewarding ones are easy money professions like 'galericilik' or 'mütteahitlik'.

Societies change all the time. Generational shifts mean a lot in the class context.

I'll tell you the story of my social class to better illustrate the point. I'm a secular Turkish urbanite child of internal migrants (migration from rural areas). My group is overrepresented in specialized or white collar jobs and characterized by an over-emphasis on education. This class of people were THE people to be for the better part of the republican history. We are the fruit of Ataturk's dreams. Only ones who had it better were blue blood industrialists and conglomerates like Sabancı etc. The reason for this group's positioning was the economic and social history of the republic. But then Özal came, and then Tayyip came. Economy shifted in a way to benefit small-time traders and rent-seekers close to AKP. Now my class, despite being by far the most productive and positive in terms of its impact on society, is undervalued. My peers migrate out the country, a lot of them are either underpaid, overworked or both. Or simply unemployed. In the old days, my kind (class) of people could raise a decent family of about 3-4 kids, afford a couple of houses and a car with one income. Nowadays, it is damn near IMPOSSIBLE for a new graduate to achieve this standard of living in a few years. And Turkey's economy didn't get smaller, so someone's been taking our share, basically.

Seeing the new Turkish reality with a class consciousness is like discovering a new color. You can't unsee it. As patriotic people, we are used to thinking of the whole country as "ours" in some capacity. But is it? Who is allowed to take the lion's share from the distribution of social and economic power? Who lives good? Who are we not allowed to criticize? I'm not talking about non-enforced "no insulting to Ataturk" laws, I'm talking about what speech gets real reprisals.

I think this very grave situation is one of the biggest roadblocks of Turkish economy. This affects everything. A country can't just constantly sh*t on its most productive people and expect to go forward. We are going to face multiple crises because of this. Sad thing is this root cause is never going to be addressed.

 

[No Name]

I may not go nowhere but what you think social class is is not social class. You're thinking about some kind of hereditary caste system. I'm talking about somewhat fluid groups. Example: Kemalist bureucrat/soldiers owned the country in the 90s, but no more. Being a public servant was very socially and economically rewarding back then. Now the most rewarding ones are easy money professions like 'galericilik' or 'mütteahitlik'.

Societies change all the time. Generational shifts mean a lot in the class context.

I'll tell you the story of my social class to better illustrate the point. I'm a secular Turkish urbanite child of internal migrants (migration from rural areas). My group is overrepresented in specialized or white collar jobs and characterized by an over-emphasis on education. This class of people were THE people to be for the better part of the republican history. We are the fruit of Ataturk's dreams. Only ones who had it better were blue blood industrialists and conglomerates like Sabancı etc. The reason for this group's positioning was the economic and social history of the republic. But then Özal came, and then Tayyip came. Economy shifted in a way to benefit small-time traders and rent-seekers close to AKP. Now my class, despite being by far the most productive and positive in terms of its impact on society, is undervalued. My peers migrate out the country, a lot of them are either underpaid, overworked or both. Or simply unemployed. In the old days, my kind (class) of people could raise a decent family of about 3-4 kids, afford a couple of houses and a car with one income. Nowadays, it is damn near IMPOSSIBLE for a new graduate to achieve this standard of living in a few years. And Turkey's economy didn't get smaller, so someone's been taking our share, basically.

Seeing the new Turkish reality with a class consciousness is like discovering a new color. You can't unsee it. As patriotic people, we are used to thinking of the whole country as "ours" in some capacity. But is it? Who is allowed to take the lion's share from the distribution of social and economic power? Who lives good? Who are we not allowed to criticize? I'm not talking about non-enforced "no insulting to Ataturk" laws, I'm talking about what speech gets real reprisals.

I think this very grave situation is one of the biggest roadblocks of Turkish economy. This affects everything. A country can't just constantly sh*t on its most productive people and expect to go forward. We are going to face multiple crises because of this. Sad thing is this root cause is never going to be addressed.

I just made a post explaining that explains that the economy has shrunk by $278,277,418,579 since 2013.

 

[YeşilVatan]

I just made a post explaining that explains that the economy has shrunk by $278,277,418,579 since 2013.

I was thinging 2002-2023 timeframe

 

[No Name]

The truth about GDP of Türkiye with IMF numbers. Purchasing power keeps soaring while nominal GDP stagnates, affected by the war between lira ₺ and the dollar $.

View attachment 52945

Economy of Turkey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think that Nominal matters far more to the economy than PPP.

 

[Zafer]

I think that Nominal matters far more to the economy than PPP.

You should have explained how.

 

[Nilgiri]

These are based on official statistics such a Tüik's inflation rate which in reality is double the official numbers.
They are still trying to fool the public with fabricated numbers but reality kicks in once you visit the market again.

PPP to begin with has limited utility as an estimate (based on another estimate) when you have:

- persistent double and maybe even triple digit inflation (as you have mentioned)

- imports make up a third or more of GDP (this relates to the above too by import inelasticity)

- have increasing currency swap basis (bad quality) for your forex level, which has taken a persistent decline in both quantity and quality, again related closely to above 2 points

PPP becomes an exercise then of how much inflation "sticks + drifts" to the PPP multiplier...when comparing to say other countries where these issues are not so intrinsically problematic for this long

PPP is quite a good estimate conceptually like most any other well intended estimate is, but its relevance and accuracy can be affected by crucial underlying distortions that vary from country to country too.

 

[Nilgiri]

I want to point out that Turkey's GDP was $957.8 billion USD in 2013, which is $1,220,277,418,579.39 after adjusting it to 2023 inflation numbers. Turkey's is short $278,277,418,579 to reach its 2013 GDP numbers.

in case anyone was wondering Turkey's current GDP, according to wiki is $942 billion which is worth $739,379,084,020.39 in 2013.

There is also the market cap aspect, where TR has similarly stagnated for a decade or more (its apex was somewhere between 2007 - 2012 at ~ 300 billion USD in those dollars)

It is now at ~ 240 billion USD in todays dollars.

If you pay attention to the video below, you will notice what is the main challenge in bringing funding to new startup funding in dynamic sectors where say TR holds its current strengths.

This is why its very important to manage the economy well in the end, no matter where the current strengths are in specific subsectors, it means little if you squandered economic muscle and let that atrophy...as that is what ultimately brings to bear and spreads the results to grow much larger activity in economy as whole.

 

[Xenon54]

PPP to begin with has limited utility as an estimate (based on another estimate) when you have:

- persistent double and maybe even triple digit inflation (as you have mentioned)

- imports make up a third or more of GDP (this relates to the above too by import inelasticity)

- have increasing currency swap basis (bad quality) for your forex level, which has taken a persistent decline in both quantity and quality, again related closely to above 2 points

PPP becomes an exercise then of how much inflation "sticks + drifts" to the PPP multiplier...when comparing to say other countries where these issues are not so intrinsically problematic for this long

PPP is quite a good estimate conceptually like most any other well intended estimate is, but its relevance and accuracy can be affected by crucial underlying distortions that vary from country to country too.

If we look at the list following comes to light:

Turkey *

Asia

38,759

Japan *

Asia

48,813

Switzerland *

Europe

84,469

So you want to tell me a Japanese with his salary can afford only slightly more stuff than a Turk? Just a comparison of the prices of cars, electronics, energy and even basic stuff such as meat will tell you this metrics is bullshit.
I dont even mention Switzerland, believing this chart a Turk with average salary should be able to afford about half of the stuff of a Swiss, i have been Turkey last April, that is NOT the case at all, if anything then it is about a factor of 10, and i am being generous here.

The problem lies in accuracy of the statistics, Swiss and Japanese statistics are for sure much more accurate than Turkish ones which are known to be doctored.
Do not trust any statistics you did not fake yourself.

 

[Nilgiri]

If we look at the list following comes to light:

Turkey *

Asia

38,759

Japan *

Asia

48,813

Switzerland *

Europe

84,469

So you want to tell me a Japanese with his salary can afford only slightly more stuff than a Turk? Just a comparison of the prices of cars, electronics, energy and even basic stuff such as meat will tell you this metrics is bullshit.
I dont even mention Switzerland, believing this chart a Turk with average salary should be able to afford about half of the stuff of a Swiss, i have been Turkey last April, that is NOT the case at all, if anything then it is about a factor of 10, and i am being generous here.

The problem lies in accuracy of the statistics, Swiss and Japanese statistics are for sure much more accurate than Turkish ones which are known to be doctored.
Do not trust any statistics you did not fake yourself.

I can tell you why too.

Data pertaining to the PPP multiplier is only sampled once every 3 or so years by the ICP study....in best case scenario schedule.

This means effectively 6 year lag (now evolving into a 9 year lag given covid) as it takes another 3 years to prepare that data into the ICP matrix for use in PPP.

i.e we are only slowly bringing in ICP 2017 matrix for use in the chunk of "10 years" .

A lot of relatively recent PPP-based studies (for say better international poverty comparisons) are even published in or still use 2011 ICP still.

So countries with say high inflation in the resolutions within these suffer in their PPP applicability more than others.

 

[B_A]

If we look at the list following comes to light:

Turkey *

Asia

38,759

Japan *

Asia

48,813

Switzerland *

Europe

84,469

So you want to tell me a Japanese with his salary can afford only slightly more stuff than a Turk? Just a comparison of the prices of cars, electronics, energy and even basic stuff such as meat will tell you this metrics is bullshit.
I dont even mention Switzerland, believing this chart a Turk with average salary should be able to afford about half of the stuff of a Swiss, i have been Turkey last April, that is NOT the case at all, if anything then it is about a factor of 10, and i am being generous here.

The problem lies in accuracy of the statistics, Swiss and Japanese statistics are for sure much more accurate than Turkish ones which are known to be doctored.
Do not trust any statistics you did not fake yourself.

I just tell you the Japanese car and electronic goods are cheap

But the food ,traffic fee,service very expensive

 

[Xenon54]

But the food ,traffic fee,service very expensive

Still nothing compared to what Turks spend with their salary on those.
Imagine you spent more than 10% of your monthly income just for filling your car.
As for food, i thought the prices were quite reasonable for what you get in a high salary country.

 

[Lool]

As for food, i thought the prices were quite reasonable for what you get in a high salary country.

Food and many other commodities in Japan are so expensive that they cant afford it on a day-to-day basis
Aside form a few commodities like fish, potatoes, and rice many other food items like grapes, chickens, and watermelons are bloody expensive that they eat such items on special occasions like Christmas, lool


Honestly, comparing Turkey and Japan is just dumb. Both countries are vastly different, with different geographical implications as well as economic problems. It is like comparing apples and oranges

 

[Xenon54]

Food and many other commodities in Japan are so expensive that they cant afford it on a day-to-day basis
Aside form a few commodities like fish, potatoes, and rice many other food items like grapes, chickens, and watermelons are bloody expensive that they eat such items on special occasions like Christmas, lool


Honestly, comparing Turkey and Japan is just dumb. Both countries are vastly different, with different geographical implications as well as economic problems. It is like comparing apples and oranges

Fruits are expensive due to scarce farmland being used for rice production hence these need to get imported.
Another aspect is japanese fruits are engineered to be luxury goods but its not like peoole can not afford food as you imply here.

My comparison is the GDP PPP list that implies Turkey and Japan are on similar level, no need to cherry pick single expensive items to make a point, life in Turkey is comparably much more expensive based on local salaries this is a fact.

 

[Zafer]

I know of a family consisting of a Turkish man and a Japanese woman. They prefer to live in Türkiye for its economy conditions after they spent several years in Japan.

 

[Avanti]

Also don't think that people in Switzerland can afford 4 or 5 times as much as Turks. With 4000$ a month you are just surviving as a single person over there

 

[Kedikesenfare]

Fruits are expensive due to scarce farmland being used for rice production hence these need to get imported.
Another aspect is japanese fruits are engineered to be luxury goods but its not like peoole can not afford food as you imply here.

My comparison is the GDP PPP list that implies Turkey and Japan are on similar level, no need to cherry pick single expensive items to make a point, life in Turkey is comparably much more expensive based on local salaries this is a fact.

Sorry but no, Japan is much more expensive than Turkey.

 

[Tornadoss]

Sorry but no, Japan is much more expensive than Turkey.

Japan might be more expensive but wages are higher as well.

 

[Kedikesenfare]

Japan might be more expensive but wages are higher as well.

Sorry again, but we ain't living in the 70's, brother. Just because something is shiny, doesn't mean it's precious.

In 2023, the average Japanese worker can't even afford an apartment half the size of the average Turkish flat built after the year 2005.

Japan has many, many advantages over Turkey but the cost of living ain't one.