TR Air Defence Programs

[UkroTurk]

It looks like the Turkish version of the Pantsir but more advanced and cooler

İt's absolutely not Pantsir variant .

Pantsir doesn't have AESA Plates, doesn't use smart ammunition.
And missiles of Pantsir have very simple guidance.
Absolutely not to worth matching.

I would say İt is Turkish 35mm caliber version of German Skyranger CIWS.

 

[Sanchez]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1683157565037748224

Re Gürz,

Thinking about it, I wonder how is it supposed to be used. As a standalone unit or part of a system?

Where is the crane? No way 2 people can reload the Bozdoğans after the 4 are fired. Needs a truck with a crane. If it is to be standalone, it only has 4 short-mid range missiles.

 

[Huelague]

İt's absolutely not Pantsir variant .

Pantsir doesn't have AESA Plates, doesn't use smart ammunition.
And missiles of Pantsir have very simple guidance.
Absolutely not to worth matching.

I would say İt is Turkish 35mm caliber version of German Skyranger CIWS.

As you know, we got some Panzir system from Libya war. It’s very likely that we reverse engineered this system.

 

[Tornadoss]

As you know, we got some Panzir system from Libya war. It’s very likely that we reverse engineered this system.

I am not sure there 's much we can obtain from Pantsir. We already head the tech.

 

[Huelague]

I am not sure there 's much we can obtain from Pantsir. We already head the tech.

I can’t say, if we gained anything or how much.

 

[Isbara]

İt's absolutely not Pantsir variant .

Pantsir doesn't have AESA Plates, doesn't use smart ammunition.
And missiles of Pantsir have very simple guidance.
Absolutely not to worth matching.

I would say İt is Turkish 35mm caliber version of German Skyranger CIWS.

May be we obtained and learned how to pack such complex and sensitive systems in such compact platforms.
Missiles, missile guidence and all those radars and sensors also it has a 35 mm gun. It is very hard to pack those systems in a little area like a wheelled APC. Space is not the only problem. Also u should ısolate those systems not to interrupt each other, guns recoil and vibrations due to gun fire should not affect the sensitivities of the sensors etc.

May be Pantsir provided our engineers some inspirations on those matters.

 

[UkroTurk]

B

As you know, we got some Panzir system from Libya war. It’s very likely that we reverse engineered this system.

Pantsir could have given nothing to Türkish defense industry and technology. We had already own AESA radars at that time. More over there's nothing common between Pantsir with Turkish CIWS.

Turkish CIWS uses smart ammunition but Russian pantsir uses idiot ammo .( Again at that time we already had Korkut)

Regarding Missiles of Pantsir, pantsir's missiles is nothing but junk. They dç have neither radar seeker nor IIR seeker. Just command line of side and proximity fuse. Really peace of junk.
At that time we already had Bozdoğan/ gökdoğan missiles. Our Ciws uses Bozdoğan missile which has IIR seeker and has datalink capabilities.

 

[UkroTurk]

May be we obtained and learned how to pack such complex and sensitive systems in such compact platforms.
Missiles, missile guidence and all those radars and sensors also it has a 35 mm gun. It is very hard to pach those systems in a little area like a wheelled APC. Space is not the only problem. Also u should ısolate those systems not to intercept each other, guns recoil and vibrations due to fun fire should not affect the sensitivities of the sensors etc.

May be Pantsir provided our engineers some inspirations on those matters.

At that time even me shared load of pictures of CIWS from the world.

İmagine if i could have found on internet CIWS with missiles, ASELSAN engineer must have found more .

We had already Korkut at that time.

We didn't need to learn something from Russians.
We copied German technology as it was in the past. Oerlikon GDF /Gepard / Millenium gun etc.

 

[Heartbang]

I can’t say, if we gained anything or how much.

We probably gained how NOT to make a CIWS system

 

[Isbara]

At that time even me shared load of pictures of CIWS from the world.

İmagine if i could have found on internet CIWS with missiles, ASELSAN engineer must have found more .

We had already Korkut at that time.

We didn't need to learn something from Russians.
We copied German technology as it was in the past. Oerlikon GDF /Gepard / Millenium gun etc.

Yes but I do not think that our engineers examined all those systems deeply.
Russian system was really a unique of it's kind. Had some many flaws but i always liked the idea.

We did not copied anything from Russians. We just tried to understand their solutions. We did not copy Pantsir. We got the idea behind it and made it perfect. That's the case.

 

[UkroTurk]

We got the idea behind it

They are just idiots

 

[Isbara]

They are just idiots

Why u say that ?
An agile, rapidly deployable and highly mobile system that can escort military convoys, can be rapidly deployed on a crisis zone, can provide low altitude air defence for forward military encampments etc...

Okay some what they sucked in the execution or could not modernized their obsolete systems, such as fire control or guidance etc.

But i still like the idea behind it.

 

[UkroTurk]

Anyway how many new Turkish air defense systems and surface to air missiles are there? Someone could count?

Gürz CIWS/35 mm SPAAG/SHORAD Bozdoğan missiles.
Burç CIWS/SPAAG/VSHORAD 20mm Gatling gun/Sungur

Göksur naval air defense system(Bozdoğan A2A based)
Levent naval air defense system and new missile.
Gökdemir ( Gökdoğan A2A missile ground launcher)

SWORD/ KILIÇ??? Processing.

 

[Pilatino]

Anyway how many new Turkish air defense systems and surface to air missiles are there? Someone could count?

Gürz CIWS/35 mm SPAAG/SHORAD Bozdoğan missiles.
Burç CIWS/SPAAG/VSHORAD 20mm Gatling gun/Sungur

Göksur naval air defense system(Bozdoğan A2A based)
Levent naval air defense system and new missile.
Gökdemir ( Gökdoğan A2A missile ground launcher)

SWORD/ KILIÇ??? Processing.

I can make a table for all of them if I can find some free time. It would be a nice activity.

 

[Huelague]

They are just idiots

I understand your reasons.

 

[Aqerdf]

I like all of it.

But my inner armchair general is not comfy with some of the things.


Such as:

GÜRZ's cannon should have higher RPM. 500/550 RPM could create achilles heel situation. Even with smart ATOM munitions.

Energetic fragments for ATOM...

GÜRZ should also be able to carry Gökdoğan, instead of Bozdoğan or with Bozdoğan.

GÜRZ should have passive C-UAS. Like it's other Panstsir-esque concept. Mr. Çay said this i think, and he's very correct.

GÜRZ should have additional C-RAM capability, with it's Bozdoğan missiles and energetic fragment loaded ATOM munitions.

BURÇ should have 6-barrel 20mm, and C-RAM capability.

If M113 can take that, PARS 8X8 Scout is definately can take it.

Future BURÇ versions should have high RPM single-barrel 30x113, 30x173 and 35x228mm cannons.

So 30mm smart fuze is needed.

Additionally, BURÇ too should have passive C-UAS.

And it's not just for us. In my opinion, these are needed for BURÇ's export too.

3-barrel (probably 750 RPM) 20mm is slow for far and fast targets. Or multi-targets.

It's competitors are:

Germans with single-barrel,high-rpm cannons, with 30/35mm smart fuzes.

Americans with 30x113 cannon and smart fuze.

And Chinese with i think both slow 30/35 single-barrel cannons (like us) and 6+ barrel 30mm gatlings. I don't know if they have 30/35mm ATOM-like munitions..


TLDR: GÜRZ needs 35mm revolver cannon.
And it's Bozdoğan needs C-RAM capability.
And acoustic-EO drone detector + small jammer.

BURÇ needs 6-barrel 20mm for starter.
And C-RAM function to build upon that.
And acoustic-EO drone detector + small jammer.

 

[UkroTurk]

Future BURÇ versions should have high RPM single-barrel 30x113, 30x173 and 35x228mm cannons.

İf Burç had 35x228 , you would get Gürz.

BURÇ should have 6-barrel 20mm, and C-RAM capability.

If M113 can take

Turkish Army make threats assessment then engineers solve the problems.


I think triple barrel is enough for UAVs, drones.

Regarding Bozdoğan, the missile is longer and heavier. Also these AESA Plates could supply with enough data for Bozdoğans range?


İ hope you didn't make irony and your questions were real.

 

[Aqerdf]

If Burç also have 35x228 single barrel / high rpm cannon, you wouldn't get Gürz.

You would get our own Skyranger 35. And probably with better selling margin. Being Turkish, less cost, no techno-political strings being attached, etc.

Gürz is something like Skyranger-NASAMS combo. Or Pantsir-Tor combo.

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Regarding Gürz and Gökdoğan:

Gökdemir does not have it's own radar, for it's own Gökdoğan missile. Afaik data is feeded to Gökdemir from other radars via data-links and networking. Same thing can be done to Gürz, if it's gonna carry Gökdoğan.

Why i'm wanting this ? It will create more flexibility for our troops on the battlefield. And with these, it will get more stronger in foreign competitions i think.

---------------------------------

Regarding Burç and 6-barrel gatling. I still don't think 3-barrel is good for an A-A mission.

You also can't comfortably engage Switchblade/FPV type drones because it doesn't have airburst munition. Fast targets don't like high rpm guns, sub-1000 rpm 20mm is definately not an high rpm gun. You will say "Sungur/Levent is there too" but still.. An air defense weapon shouldn't have low rpm gun in my opinion.

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Didn't much understand the last part.

Does it contain some stones ? May i ask...?

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Edit: I meant Gökdemir but wrongfully i wroted Göksur.

 

[Sanchez]

I think this is the big surprise from Gürbağ that was alluded to.

MM-GIDS
Short Range AD.
20mm M197 gun, 8km range MANPAD, and anti-drone kamikaze drones.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1683725354303737856

 

[UkroTurk]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1683753463887396867

MIDLAS being shown off for the first time at IDEF'23!

Quadpacked Missiles btw

MIDLAS
SIPER BLOK I, ESSM and Quadpack HISAR-D RF
View attachment 59514
@SavunmaSanayiST.com

Quadpacked Hisar-D