TR Propulsion Systems

[mTT]

Mr. Akşit said some detail design work and some detail calculations are still ongoing. However the parts that design works have been completed for should be in the process of manufacturing already. How long the manufacturing will take is guesswork at best. My guess is we can hear some roaring in 18 months.

the magic number

Spoiler: 18

When I see a date 18 months in the future, I always think of ALTAY.

 

[TheInsider]

TF35000 first fire is likely in Q4 2026. We will see the real deal in IDEF 2027. I think they will show one of the several prototypes there.

 

[dBSPL]

For our aviation industry to gain global competitiveness and for strategic competence in domestic needs, the mid-weight turbofan for combatants was one of the critical issues, even though it was not voiced much. Also, this development program will probably be a naturally navalized turbofan from birth. Because I think it would be consistent to say that the first area of use will be the navalized Hürjet and Kızılelma program.

In the general plan, the domestic aviation industry will reach indigenous engine alternatives in the light, medium and heavy classes almost simultaneously, similar to China's recent combat aircraft engine development strategy. This parallel progress will also positively affect the main platform development/forking processes in the future.

 

[starcrescent]

TF35000 first fire is likely in Q4 2026. We will see the real deal in IDEF 2027. I think they will show one of the several prototypes there.

I think we will see a plastic mockup of it in IDEF 2025.

 

[Merzifonlu]

ike the West blocking sale of some simple pump.

IMO, we have already passed that point in terms of domestic industrial infrastructure. I think we have become capable of not only designing a turbofan engine from scratch, but also producing it with domestic means down to the simplest bolt. We will no longer be stuck with a simple pump.

If that were not the case, neither would TEI have reached the end of the TF-6000/10000 project, nor would Baykar be talking about developing a turbofan engine in the 20000 lbf class.

 

[Yasar_TR]

IMO, we have already passed that point in terms of domestic industrial infrastructure. I think we have become capable of not only designing a turbofan engine from scratch, but also producing it with domestic means down to the simplest bolt. We will no longer be stuck with a simple pump.

If that were not the case, neither would TEI have reached the end of the TF-6000/10000 project, nor would Baykar be talking about developing a turbofan engine in the 20000 lbf class.

I like your optimism. But only recently the TF6000 was delayed more than 6-7 months because of a sale of a simple part being blocked by our so called allies, and had to be made locally. (Dr Aksit‘s words)
There are still many parts that depend on foreign input. Many local companies that produce the “indigenous“ parts like landing gears, starter engines still use outside sourcing for small parts. Many parts that you obtain without any problem in normal times may become blocked once they find that it is for KAAN. We have had too many examples of this in the past.

TS1400 is 30-40kg heavier than planned, because they couldn’t get the right parts.
It is very difficult to produce everything in house.

 

[Shtr]

TF10000's first ignition will be probably in 1-2 years according to Mr. Akşit. It roughly makes around 3-4 years to mature and put into production. I was always optimist about timeline but it seems it was just a dream.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Although optimism is not a particularly bad thing alongside with having faith in our engineers and defence industry in general, given some of the achievements we have scored in record times in many fields of said industry, @Yasar_TR üstad, being the voice of calculated reason every time I read his contributions, gives a realistic and balanced assessment of the situation.
Optimism is not bad but we have to be realistic and know our shortcomings. Our defence industry has time and time again proven that it can overcome hurdles and curve balls thrown at it, but let's not forget that we have many more challenges to conquer.

 

[Zafer]

Although optimism is not a particularly bad thing alongside with having faith in our engineers and defence industry in general, given some of the achievements we have scored in record times in many fields of said industry, @Yasar_TR üstad, being the voice of calculated reason every time I read his contributions, gives a realistic and balanced assessment of the situation.
Optimism is not bad but we have to be realistic and know our shortcomings. Our defence industry has times and times again proven that it can overcome hurdles and curve balls thrown at it, but let's not forget that we have many more challenges to conquer.

We wouldn't be able to do shit without the Brits, if we believed some comments made at the time, there is no denial.
Türkiye have overachived skeptics' predictions time and time again.

 

[Merzifonlu]

TS1400 is 30-40kg heavier than planned, because they couldn’t get the right parts.

What is the source of this information? As far as I know, the TS-1400 engine will be 20-30 kg heavier than the competitor engine, not 30-40 kg.

 

[TR_123456]

What is the source of this information? As far as I know, the TS-1400 engine will be 20-30 kg heavier than the competitor engine, not 30-40 kg.

So why is it heavier then?
Why should it be heavier?

 

[Merzifonlu]

So why is it heavier then?
Why should it be heavier?

The TEI TS-1400 engine is 20-30 kg heavier than the LHTEC CTS800 engine that was used as a basis when the project started. Because Western countries did not sell us the top notch super alloys that they used. We used super alloys that were lower quality but sold as "off the shelf" products. And to compensate for this situation, they designed the engine 160 HP more powerful than originally requested.

This is how Prof. Akşit explained it in the video I gave the link to.

 

[Saithan]

Does 20-40 kg increased weight mean that much ?

TS1400 will be used on Gökbey right, so what kind of limitations will it bring ?

considering it's our "first engine" does that mean anything as long as we produce 200-300 Gökbey ? and gain the knowhow to do better.

 

[begturan]

Does 20-40 kg increased weight mean that much ?

TS1400 will be used on Gökbey right, so what kind of limitations will it bring ?

considering it's our "first engine" does that mean anything as long as we produce 200-300 Gökbey ? and gain the knowhow to do better.

Once the engine enters mass production and the embargoes on us are lifted, this extra weight will probably disappear, and I do not think that a 30 kg load will be a problem for a cargo helicopter, and the engine produces more power than its other equivalents, so ?

Of course, experts on the subject can provide clearer information on this subject.

 

[TR_123456]

The TEI TS-1400 engine is 20-30 kg heavier than the LHTEC CTS800 engine that was used as a basis when the project started. Because Western countries did not sell us the top notch super alloys that they used. We used super alloys that were lower quality but sold as "off the shelf" products. And to compensate for this situation, they designed the engine 160 HP more powerful than originally requested.

This is how Prof. Akşit explained it in the video I gave the link to.

Cant we produce these super alloys inhouse?
@Yasar_TR abi?

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Does 20-40 kg increased weight mean that much ?

TS1400 will be used on Gökbey right, so what kind of limitations will it bring ?

considering it's our "first engine" does that mean anything as long as we produce 200-300 Gökbey ? and gain the knowhow to do better.

In aviation, every pound matters.

 

[Saithan]

I hope someone can actually answer my question to the limitations. And not throw a jargon we all have heard before.

 

[Zafer]

Cant we produce these super alloys inhouse?

As TEI have been working on several project that will use the super-alloy technology one can consider that they are working on these alloys day and night. They will probably not be advertising what the latest achievement is however helicopter engines actually may not be using the latest alloys either. So the latest of TEI probably already matches the already not the cutting edge helicopter alloys.

The latest we heard about the alloy works is TEI can do a better job with additive manufacturing than that can be done with traditional casting or crystal growth. I believe they should be in a phase where they are optimizing their powder production for their additive efforts as of now. Until we hear again from the officials this is where we are likely to be standing.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Cant we produce these super alloys inhouse?
@Yasar_TR abi?

simple answer to your question is : Yes! Mostly.

detailed answer is:

At the time when we were producing the TS1400 engine, there were parts that needed to be outsourced. Also there were materials that needed to be outsourced. The top notch, first tier quality materials and parts that were being supplied, were by countries that we could not depend on. So we chose lower tier quality materials which caused the 20-30kg weight deficiency (not 30-40kg as per @Merzifonlu clarified) to compensate for the achievement of end use performance.

Prof Aksit does not give the details of the parts where the lower class materials were used. But a lot of water has flown under the bridge since those days.

Nickel Super Alloys are used in the manufacturing of hot parts of a jet turbine engine due to their high temperature performance. For example, the combustion chamber itself is such a part. We also know how proud Prof Aksit was when he produced a uniblock combustion chamber with additive technologies whereby previously, the same part needed 13 different parts to be cast. He mentioned that the additive technologies were able to give almost the same performance levels of a cast part.

High pressure turbine blades are made from Nickel Super alloys. TEI uses locally produced single crystal turbine blades. The materials used in the manufacturing of these parts, are essentially not any different than any top grade turbine blade. We can manufacture 3rd generation single crystal super alloy blades. So really there is no limitation as such about the production of high quality super alloys.
There are also drive shafts that run along the length of the engine that go near hot parts. These are made from special steel alloys, titanium-Aluminium and Nickel super alloys. They have to have very high heat endurance and low metal fatigue properties.

When producing an engine, there are certain parts like the engine casing where normal materials like aluminium are used.
To prepare a cast for limited number of production run is uneconomical and takes time even in serial production. It is easier and cheaper to outsource it. Probably, what Prof Aksit was pointing out as being heavier, was something like this.

Account Suspended

https://www.colorado.edu/faculty/kantha/sites/default/files/attached-files/73549-116619_-_takehiro_okura_-_dec_17_2015_1027_am_-_asen_5063_2015_final_report_okura.pdf

 

[Zafer]

A look at TEI Piston Diesel engine performance. Power to weight ratio matters but fuel consumption per unit of power matters for endurance in the air and TBO hours matters for ease of maintenance.