TR Politics

[Huelague]

There is no such thing under atheism frame.

I forgot to add you just parroted pkk self proclaimed goals, irony.

There is no conversely. An atheist can be a criminal and terrist, of course. Doesnt mean every criminal or terrorist is an atheist, as they believe in nothing.

 

[Sinan]

All good but remove pkk thing from picture and you still have ofspring of kurdish nationalistic agenda, pkk carpet is not whole apartment. Hdp proves that easiley, they just shift in some trendy political party..

He already gave answer for that in post #174

 

[Sinan]

Regardless, the armed conflict in the 90s completely ended PKK until 2000. In 1999 Abdullah Ocalan was captured. Akp basically revoked this process with the solution process. Solution process wasnt sth Turkey needed. It wasnt initiated because ''we realised that was the only way do deal with an existing issue''.

I want to object to the some of the stuff here.

93-95 was the period when the conflict was at the peak. Osman Pamukoğlu general, curb the numbers of PKK and send them to hibernation. Operations continued, not intense as Osman Pamukoğlu's time but they were continuing time to time. In 99 Ocalan was captured and PKK decleared one sided truce. When AKP come to power in 2002 they said "zero terror" as if it was their achievement and stopped the cross border operations altogether.

Our loses

Yıllar	Güvenli Personeli	Sivil
1984	26	43
1985	58	141
1986	51	133
1987	71	237
1988	54	109
1989	153	178
1990	161	204
1991	244	233
1992	629	832
1993	715	1.479
1994	1.145	992
1995	772	313
1996	608	170
1997	518	158
1998	383	85
1999	236	83
2000	29	17
2001	20	8
2002	7	7
2003	31	63
2004	75	28
2005	105	30
2006	111	38
2007	146	37
2008	171	51
2009	62	18
2010	94	23
2011	114	18
2012	157	14
2013	3	3

Devlet Bahçeli'nin : "2002’de sıfırlanan terör, AKP’yle canlan..." iddiasında doğruluk payı var mı? Arşiv

Genel Başkanı Devlet Bahçeli'nin 2002’de sıfırlanan terör, AKP’yle canlanmıştır. şeklindeki iddiasının Doğruluk Payını kontrol ettik. Bakalım Devlet Bahçeli iddiasında ne kadar haklı?

www.dogrulukpayi.com

Erdogan at that time yielded to US pressure and abstained from doing cross border operations, PKK regained it's power and continued the attacks. In 2013 "Peace process" started which was Turkey's biggest failure against terrorism. For the first time in it's history Turkey negotiated with terrorists and eventually fooled by them. Paid a very high price in blood.

 

[Ardabas34]

Yeah I sounded wrong, I am in line with what you said, I wanted to say by the end of 90s, in 99/00.

 

[Balamir]

I wont try to convince you further but:
1st, it is senseless to expect RMK to win all tenders. They have also bidded for several other projects.
2nd Adik has won LST project for several reasons, probably their dizayn was a better one.
I am not denying what you say, but your reasons to support this are wrong and i am correcting it.
Those two projects would never be awarded to a single shipyard. None of shipyards in Turkey is able to handle those two critical projects simultanously, moreover, won't be allowed to avoid monopolization.
LPD project has not changed due to political reasons, at least not purely like Milgem serial production project. There has been several other reasons: someone whispering someone about F-35B, ski jump, that someone asks for an aircraft carrier, Navantia's solution becomes the only option among the competitors.
TCG Anadolu looks the same but actually different than Juan Carlos, even construction material is different.

Everything you write about LPD is not valid for me unless you provide new and logical evidence. You have written a lot of things but there is not one data. Articles, documents, news etc. nothing. That's why I say you're writing on water.

 

[Anmdt]

Up to you, i am not here to convince you on reliability of the information provided by me. But i can assure you , at least i am more reliable from social media sources and some articles posted on internet god knows by whom claiming themselves to be military experts. I do write by direct sources, or direct experience.
This is my work, it is not an hobby for me.

Everything you write about LPD is not valid for me unless you provide new and logical evidence. You have written a lot of things but there is not one data. Articles, documents, news etc. nothing. That's why I say you're writing on water.

 

[Balamir]

Up to you, i am not here to convince you on reliability of the information provided by me. But i can assure you , at least i am more reliable from social media sources and some articles posted on internet god knows by whom claiming themselves to be military experts. I do write by direct sources, or direct experience.
This is my work, it is not an hobby for me.

Do not try to convince people, but to prove what you say. For example, can you deny the phone call I wrote above? If you don't have an answer to this question, it would be better not to keep the title busy.

 

[Anmdt]

I dont have to prove anything to anyone. do not believe if you dont want to, neither there is a source i can tag and give reference on matters i am speaking.

I didnt deny the phone call, i have just given you extra details on the matter the phone call has morelikely happened but the true process has been initiated by some individual efforts of some SSB personnel directed by Erdogan.
Should i write everything to tiny bit of detail in here?
You are getting whole discussion wrong and personal.
I can keep any title busy, as long as it doesn't mislead the connection. Management would remove the posts if it is irrevelant and i would be pleased if they do so. I even report my own posts if i derail the subject

Some newspapers, some twitter accounts, some blogs, some other forums(except some users i am sure to be credible) would have never been my sources.

Do not try to convince people, but to prove what you say. For example, can you deny the phone call I wrote above? If you don't have an answer to this question, it would be better not to keep the title busy.

 

[Balamir]

I dont have to prove anything to anyone. do not believe if you dont want to, neither there is a source i can tag and give reference on matters i am speaking.

I didnt deny the phone call, i have just given you extra details on the matter the phone call has morelikely happened but the true process has been initiated by some individual efforts of some SSB personnel directed by Erdogan.
Should i write everything to tiny bit of detail in here?
You are getting whole discussion wrong and personal.
I can keep any title busy, as long as it doesn't mislead the connection. Management would remove the posts if it is irrevelant and i would be pleased if they do so. I even report my own posts if i derail the subject

Some newspapers, some twitter accounts, some blogs, some other forums(except some users i am sure to be credible) would have never been my sources.

Discussion is closed

 

[Anmdt]

Discussion is closed

Nope
What i am telling, the call is fictional, rhetorical, erdogan doesnt know entire legal ways to cancel the project. He just wanted the project to be cancelled, and his guys had got it done. Simple. Why should he spend his time for that?
I am giving you extra details on how it wasn't just a call. Yet you keep derailing and debating here.
It is known for sure that erdogan has interfered there, dont you think i know it?
But the actual progress on how to smoothly cancel the tender has been carried out by SSB.
You are even too lazy to read my posts.
Do i deny the phonecall here? :

Turkish Aircraft Carrier Project

1. First, 3-8 ADA class corvette's tender was canceled. (Ask Google wondering how it was canceled) https://www.marinedealnews.com/dev-ihalelerden-ilkini-rmk-marine-kazandi/ https://www.dunya.com/gundem/koc039un-kazandigi-ihale-iptal-haberi-222767...

defencehub.live

Or actually you didnt read the whole post and missed out i told you about the true progress on the background of that call, that the call was rather an order to kalkavan to follow procedures to be introduced by some SSB personnel.

 

[Anmdt]

Your posts are too shallow to read, unqualified and lack data. It consists of empty content and propaganda.

Propagand of whom? Be explicit please.

First of all, you can not evaluate my qualification, or my posts'

You have right to ignore my posts, you dont have any rights to dispespect me, my posts and my profession.

You cant win every argument you cant learn everything from google.

 

[Ardabas34]

Nope
What i am telling, the call is fictional, rhetorical, erdogan doesnt know entire legal ways to cancel the project. He just wanted the project to be cancelled, and his guys had got it done. Simple. Why should he spend his time for that?
I am giving you extra details on how it wasn't just a call. Yet you keep derailing and debating here.
It is known for sure that erdogan has interfered there, dont you think i know it?
But the actual progress on how to smoothly cancel the tender has been carried out by SSB.
You are even too lazy to read my posts.
Do i deny the phonecall here? :

Turkish Aircraft Carrier Project

1. First, 3-8 ADA class corvette's tender was canceled. (Ask Google wondering how it was canceled) https://www.marinedealnews.com/dev-ihalelerden-ilkini-rmk-marine-kazandi/ https://www.dunya.com/gundem/koc039un-kazandigi-ihale-iptal-haberi-222767...

defencehub.live

Or actually you didnt read the whole post and missed out i told you about the true progress on the background of that call, that the call was rather an order to kalkavan to follow procedures to be introduced by some SSB personnel.

I have read the entire arguement.
Balamir constantly provided sources and his narrative makes a total sense.

It is an absurd and totally fishy situation for a prime minister to intervene in such a tender. Why would he micromanage such a thing? And why does he have such a close link to someone who couldnt even properly apply to the tender(his words)?
Actually ''fishy'' would be used when there is dispute, there is no dispute what is going on in here!

In the phone call then-prime minister Erdogan literally gives advise to Kalkavan saying ''object to the bid that Koc won'' He literally cares this more than Kalkavan himself.
then when Kalkavan tells him ''but we dont even have a written application?'' and Erdogan responds back ''doesnt matter, you go ahead'' Kalkavan obviously at this point doesnt even expect sth to change, yet Erdogan is the one who wants it.

and yes as expected the bid given to Koc group gets cancelled after news about prime ministry inspection board (Başbakanlık Tekftiş Kurulu) ''initiating investigation'' come up and in 26 September 2013 in Defense Industry Executive Committee prime minister Erdogan declares he cancelled the bid.

NOTE: THIS HAPPENS ONLY 3 MONTHS AFTER GEZI PARK PROTESTS IN WHICH KOC SHELTERED PROTESTERS IN HIS DIVAN HOTEL!!!

Koc sheltered protesters in his hotel in 15 June 2013 and this happened in 26 September 2013.

Gezi soruşturması, Koç’a da uzanır mı?

Gezi isyanının odağındakilerin tespiti amacı ile, dün bir operasyon daha başladı.. Birkaç öğretim üyesi gözaltına alındı.. Devamı da gelecek gibi.. Gelsin de....

www.yeniakit.com.tr

Koç Ailesi’nin Divan Oteli...

www.sozcu.com.tr

Kalkavan himself says they made the mistake themselves by not applying with a written application but Erdogan still tells them to make an objection to BIMER, prime minister's special office and prime ministry inspection board about ''how the tender wasnt done with competition.''

Guess who gets the bid? After being given ''a second chance'' Kalkavan gets the bid.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Unfortunately Partisan Politics rules Turkey. Look at it AKP has the most votes and second is CHP.

When are the people themselves going to say no and find other alternatives?

It always boils down to religion and kemalism nothing else. Pick a team and people go with it screw policy.

If we just focus on the two main parties, both of them have shown incredible levels of corruption and treasonous actions. One hides behind religion, the other hides behind Kemalism.

Neither party follows Islam or Kemalism.

But like they say, you get the leaders you deserve.

 

[Anmdt]

Erdogan is that you?

Dude, what are you still objecting to after you admit the phone call is real?

I have read the entire arguement.
Balamir constantly provided sources and his narrative makes a total sense.

It is an absurd and totally fishy situation for a prime minister to intervene in such a tender. Why would he micromanage such a thing? And why does he have such a close link to someone who couldnt even properly apply to the tender(his words)?
Actually ''fishy'' would be used when there is dispute, there is no dispute what is going on in here!

In the phone call then-prime minister Erdogan literally gives advise to Kalkavan saying ''object to the bid that Koc won'' He literally cares this more than Kalkavan himself.
then when Kalkavan tells him ''but we dont even have a written application?'' and Erdogan responds back ''doesnt matter, you go ahead'' Kalkavan obviously at this point doesnt even expect sth to change, yet Erdogan is the one who wants it.

and yes as expected the bid given to Koc group gets cancelled after news about prime ministry inspection board (Başbakanlık Tekftiş Kurulu) ''initiating investigation'' come up and in 26 September 2013 in Defense Industry Executive Committee prime minister Erdogan declares he cancelled the bid.

NOTE: THIS HAPPENS ONLY 3 MONTHS AFTER GEZI PARK PROTESTS IN WHICH KOC SHELTERED PROTESTERS IN HIS DIVAN HOTEL!!!

Koc sheltered protesters in his hotel in 15 June 2013 and this happened in 26 September 2013.

Gezi soruşturması, Koç’a da uzanır mı?

Gezi isyanının odağındakilerin tespiti amacı ile, dün bir operasyon daha başladı.. Birkaç öğretim üyesi gözaltına alındı.. Devamı da gelecek gibi.. Gelsin de....

www.yeniakit.com.tr

Koç Ailesi’nin Divan Oteli...

www.sozcu.com.tr

Kalkavan himself says they made the mistake themselves by not applying with a written application but Erdogan still tells them to make an objection to BIMER, prime minister's special office and prime ministry inspection board about ''how the tender wasnt done with competition.''

Guess who gets the bid? After being given ''a second chance'' Kalkavan gets the bid.

Kalkavan gets the milgem bid?

The LPD tender was held once and awarded to Sedef.

Here:
Koc sedef desan has competed for LPD since the beginning.
The project which has got cancelled is milgem serial production. The cancellation is orchestrated by individuals from SSB as directed by Erdogan. The project later has not been revived, remaining 4 ships are cancelled, project has remained from last batch of milgem, as I-Class while remaining 2 Ada class has been constructed by Naval shipyard. Sedef hasn't won the tender they have objected because

Do i deny the phone call? I am telling you that Erdogan wants something to be done, he directs some people to guide kalkavan through objection. They find a suitable adress and objects to save SSB from paying remedies for one-sided cancellation.

I can literally search on google and get any kind of source even some to support flat earth theories or some theories to support that 'gok itiyor'
Giving sources and references from not revised public sources, or newspapers are useless and not credible i dont even click on those.

 

[Ardabas34]

Kalkavan gets the milgem bid? Are you living an alternative universe or what?

The LPD tender was held once and awarded to Sedef.

Here:
Koc sedef desan has competed for LPD since the beginning.
The project which has got cancelled is milgem serial production. The cancellation is orchestrated by individuals from SSB as directed by Erdogan. The project later has not been revived, remaining 4 ships are cancelled, project has remained from last batch of milgem, as I-Class while remaining 2 Ada class has been constructed by Naval shipyard. Sedef hasn't won the tender they have objected because

Do i deny the phone call? I am telling you that Erdogan wants something to be done, he directs some people to guide kalkavan through objection. They find a suitable adress and objects to save SSB from paying remedies for one-sided cancellation.

I can literally search on google and get any kind of source even some to support flat earth theories or some theories to support that 'gok itiyor'
Giving sources and references from not revised public sources, or newspapers are useless and not credible i dont even click on those.

You are reading all these from news and sources which like to romanticize and novelize the story, you get immersed in this.

And now you are claiming that i am an erdogan supporter? Nice

How is LPD tender related to the arguement? If anything it shows how Sedef(Kalkavan) previously used his Erdogan links to get that bid. I am heavily suspicious but I will still refrain from that arguement since there is no proof.

Koç'un kazandığı ihaleyi Başbakan mı bozdurdu?

Başbakan Erdoğan'ın tershane sahibi Metin Kalkavan ile yaptığı telefon görüşmesinin ses kaydı iş dünyasını sarsacak türden...

www.sozcu.com.tr

This was my source. Yeah, my bad when it said this in the last paragraph:

Erdoğan, Kalkavan’a ihaleyi kendilerine vermek için mutabakata vardıklarını anlatıyor. Kalkavan’ın vereceği fiyatı ona göre ayarlamasını istiyor. Alternatif teklif daha cazip olmasına rağmen kabul etmeyerek Kalkavan’a ikinci bir şans verdiklerini söylüyor.

I thought Kalkavan got it after all but it actually doesnt say the course of the project at the end.

The project which has got cancelled is milgem serial production. The cancellation is orchestrated by individuals from SSB as directed by Erdogan. The project later has not been revived, remaining 4 ships are cancelled, project has remained from last batch of milgem, as I-Class while remaining 2 Ada class has been constructed by Naval shipyard. Sedef hasn't won the tender they have objected because

Do i deny the phone call? I am telling you that Erdogan wants something to be done, he directs some people to guide kalkavan through objection. They find a suitable adress and objects to save SSB from paying remedies for one-sided cancellation.

You are reading all these from news and sources which like to romanticize and novelize the story, you get immersed in this.

You say Erdogan in fact did all this to save SSB from paying remedies right and not to punish Koc group? This itself is a bad faith since if state takes away rights of private groups with such tactics, it will give unreliability to market.

But you are wrong anyway, he did do it to punish Koc and give it to his partizan, Kalkavan.

1) If his final aim was just to cancel the tender without paying remedy to Koc, then why did he put effort into calling Kalkavan again and told him to arrange his price?

2) Then, again when the other option was better why did he again put effort into giving a second chance to Kalkavans Sedef?

He could simply cancel the tender right after the second meeting. He instead personally called Kalkavan to arrange his price, he gave a second chance to him etc. He obviously wanted Kalkavan to win but after seeing he was incapable of this, he cancelled the project simple as that.

YThis guy put Feto into our cosmic room.

2 Ada class has been constructed by Naval shipyard. Sedef hasn't won the tender they have objected because

Yes, because? Why is the sentence incomplete?

I shall complete it for you, they havent objected. Erdogan made them object. Kalkavan told Erdogan we cant object we didnt even have a written application, it was our mistake. Erdogan replies ''it doesnt matter, you object anyway''.

 

[Balamir]

How is LPD tender related to the arguement? If anything it shows how Sedef(Kalkavan) previously used his Erdogan links to get that bid. I am heavily suspicious but I will still refrain from that arguement since there is no proof.

Koç'un kazandığı ihaleyi Başbakan mı bozdurdu?

Başbakan Erdoğan'ın tershane sahibi Metin Kalkavan ile yaptığı telefon görüşmesinin ses kaydı iş dünyasını sarsacak türden...

www.sozcu.com.tr

This was my source. Yeah, my bad when it said this in the last paragraph:


I thought Kalkavan got it after all but it actually doesnt say the course of the project at the end.



You are the one trying to romanticize Erdogans bad faith here. In fact how you describe things also point at a bad faith. You say Erdogan in fact did all this to save SSB from paying remedies right and not to punish Koc group? This itself is a bad faith since if state takes away rights of private groups with such tactics, it will give unreliability to market.

But you are wrong anyway, he did do it to punish Koc and give it to his partizan, Kalkavan.

1) If his final aim was just to cancel the tender without paying remedy to Koc, then why did he put effort into calling Kalkavan again and told him to arrange his price?

2) Then, again when the other option was better why did he again put effort into giving a second chance to Kalkavans Sedef?

He could simply cancel the tender right after the second meeting. He instead personally called Kalkavan to arrange his price, he gave a second chance to him etc. He obviously wanted Kalkavan to win but after seeing he was incapable of this, he cancelled the project simple as that.

You act like Erdogan cares so much about our national defense. This guy put Feto into our cosmic room.




Yes, because? Why is the sentence incomplete?



Either that or you are pathologically optimistic

The Gezi protests had such great effects that they could change the results of the auction. What had happened in road bridge tenders before was in defense tenders. It will continue to happen.

 

[Anmdt]

I am not telling Erdogan has done it to save SSB from paying remedies.
Erdogan wanted to cancel that project, in the background some individuals from SSB has guided-consulted the procedures , and kalkavan (rather a person, again has been chosen for the objection) so that SSB (government) wont have to pay the remedies.
Is it clear? Not?
No need sources on how officials interfered with that particular project and people in here knows my stance about the LPD project. I was never in favor of Sedef but in favor of RMK through the tender or even until construction has started (i have also posted other irregularities in the tender yet probably you havent paid attention), but from this point on we can not reverse it but accept the fact that we have adapted a solution with minimal gain in ToT and know-how and similar gains in terms of operational capabilities, thus we can only hope the best contribution to Turkish Navy.
Several times i have written "the project was destined to Sedef, even before being awarded and RMK has known this"
This sentence refers to pre-gezi era, regardless of what happened in gezi, the project was destined to Sedef after they have been interested in it.
What does this actually mean, does such a sentence sound in favor of Erdogan of Sedef?

What i am intending to tell in shorter, it didn't happen just with a phone call as written on newspaper, my first message was indicating there has been things on the background to fullfill erdogan's wish.

But people never appreciates extra information so why do i bother?

How is LPD tender related to the arguement? If anything it shows how Sedef(Kalkavan) previously used his Erdogan links to get that bid. I am heavily suspicious but I will still refrain from that arguement since there is no proof.

Koç'un kazandığı ihaleyi Başbakan mı bozdurdu?

Başbakan Erdoğan'ın tershane sahibi Metin Kalkavan ile yaptığı telefon görüşmesinin ses kaydı iş dünyasını sarsacak türden...

www.sozcu.com.tr

This was my source. Yeah, my bad when it said this in the last paragraph:


I thought Kalkavan got it after all but it actually doesnt say the course of the project at the end.



You are the one trying to romanticize Erdogans bad faith here. In fact how you describe things also point at a bad faith. You say Erdogan in fact did all this to save SSB from paying remedies right and not to punish Koc group? This itself is a bad faith since if state takes away rights of private groups with such tactics, it will give unreliability to market.

But you are wrong anyway, he did do it to punish Koc.

1) If his final aim was just to cancel the tender without paying remedy to Koc, then why did he put effort into calling Kalkavan again and told him to arrange his price?

2) Then, again when the other option was better why did he again put effort into giving a second chance to Kalkavans Sedef?

He could simply cancel the tender right after the second meeting. He instead personally called Kalkavan to arrange his price, he gave a second chance to him etc. He obviously wanted Kalkavan to win but after seeing he was incapable of this, he cancelled the project simple as that.

You act like Erdogan cares so much about our national defense. This guy put Feto into our cosmic room.




Yes, because? Why is the sentence incomplete?



Either that or you are pathologically optimistic

 

[Ardabas34]

I am not telling Erdogan has done it to save SSB from paying remedies.
Erdogan wanted to cancel that project, in the background some individuals from SSB has guided-consulted the procedures , and kalkavan (rather a person, again has been chosen for the objection) so that SSB (government) wont have to pay the remedies.
Is it clear? Not?

Erdogan wanted to cancel that project and while doing so he didnt want to pay the remedies. This is it. This is your arguement.

and I am telling you, you are wrong because if this was his intention overall he wouldnt have personally call Kalkavan again and give him advises like arranging his price and even after losing again in the second meeting, giving him a second chance. He would simply cancel the tender the first day without caring how favorable each side would be. He instead even gives second chances.

After realising there is no hope in Sedef, he cancels the project.

 

[Anmdt]

Erdogan wanted to cancel that project and while doing so he didnt want to pay the remedies. This is it. This is your arguement.

and I am telling you, you are wrong because if this was his intention overall he wouldnt have personally call Kalkavan again and give him advises like arranging his price and even after losing again in the second meeting, giving him a second chance. He would simply cancel the tender the first day without caring how favorable each side would be. He instead even gives second chances.

After realising there is no hope in Sedef, he cancels the project.

First of all, how does two; cancelling a project and paying remedies(compensation), relate?
These two are in cause effect relation,one can not happen for the other, but because of the other.
(This is my bad, i actually have meant compensation, it was wrong to use remedy here)
The project could have been directly cancelled by SSB, as Erdogan has wished. In this case SSB , thus government would have to pay the compensation.
The project has been cancelled in other way around, kalkavan was just a puppet designated by someone to fulfill the mission. This is where novelization and romanticization of the story comes in, newspapers, twitter people.

Is it clear enough?
I have never said Erdogan got this project cancelled to not pay compensation, they have got project cancelled by usig kalkavan to avoid paying compensation. (remedy i have said, mistakenly in previous posts). Erdogan wanted project to be cancelled, individuals from SSB has played a theathre so that there wont be any compensation.

 

[Anmdt]

After realising there is no hope in Sedef, he cancels the project.

Really?
There is no other shipyards which was particulay owned by some relatives of top officials to build milgem and it was cancelled just because Sedef was not capable?
Again, i have written in the other thread, should i start to list shipyards which is linked to government officials (some are ex officials now).
Start with searching about Binali Yildirim.
Later about his-not Binali Yildirim- sons