India AMCA Program

Bhartiya Sainik

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If AMCA's IWB can be widened & Astr-2 AAMs staggered then similar to F-22, 6 Astr-2 AAMs can fit.
In A-G only mode, it may allow total 16 SAAW bombs.
View attachment 72563

In persuit of improvements, there might be some good news. 🥳🤟🥁🎯🎊🎉
The unofficial tweet might be true. I lately got an infographic showing AMCA's IWB dimensions to be 4.2m long, 2.2m wide, 0.75m height. The dimension is not mentioned in many other posters.

1734536547603.jpeg


The Astr-1,2,3 AAMs have same length 3.84m. But unfortunately due to big fins of Astr-1, even staggering doesn't help to fit 3 AAMs/bay, total of 6.
But the Astr-2 with shorter fins can easily fit with staggering.
Bcoz of limited info coming out gradually, the older CADs couldn't show the actual weapons capacity. If we superimpose the actual IWB dimensions to match with Astr-1,2 AAMs then we can see the difference.

1734536565584.png

1734536591801.png


In latest CAD by artist Kuntal Biswas who sticks to official specs, the IWB seems to have been widened, although a bottom view with exact dimensions & capacity is not available yet. The below pic is 2.5 months old now but nobody posted.

1734536705129.jpeg


More good news to come gradually. 🤟✌️🎯
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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In persuit of improvements, there might be some good news. 🥳🤟🥁🎯🎊🎉
The unofficial tweet might be true. I lately got an infographic showing AMCA's IWB dimensions to be 4.2m long, 2.2m wide, 0.75m height. The dimension is not mentioned in many other posters.

View attachment 72745

The Astr-1,2,3 AAMs have same length 3.84m. But unfortunately due to big fins of Astr-1, even staggering doesn't help to fit 3 AAMs/bay, total of 6.
But the Astr-2 with shorter fins can easily fit with staggering.
Bcoz of limited info coming out gradually, the older CADs couldn't show the actual weapons capacity. If we superimpose the actual IWB dimensions to match with Astr-1,2 AAMs then we can see the difference.

View attachment 72746
View attachment 72747

In latest CAD by artist Kuntal Biswas who sticks to official specs, the IWB seems to have been widened, although a bottom view with exact dimensions & capacity is not available yet. The below pic is 2.5 months old now but nobody posted.

View attachment 72748

More good news to come gradually. 🤟✌️🎯

Fitting Ramjet missiles is a challenge bcoz of their long intakes, it becomes difficult to stagger them.
There is an early render by artist Kuntal Biswas of 2 Astr-3 SFDR /bay, total 4 AAMs, but pic is angled, the bay is short with big gap in between.

1734758288218.png


He has also made multiple CADs of Astr-3 SFDR BUT with different fin & ramjet intake dimensions.
1734758315527.png

The 3rd one is the only one with bottom view so if we resize it with IWB then still it will be a TIGHT UNSAFE fit of 3 staggered AAMs/bay.
And if we consider 3 staggered Meteors (AAM CAD by artist "AkelaFreedom") then although it is 6" shorter but its intakes & fins seem to be wider & overflows out of bay.

1734758340373.png


Editing in MS Paint, Photoshop, etc can produce inaccurate errors.
It is best accurate if the artists themselves produce this kind of images. But most of them don't.
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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News channels & elsewhere people are talking abot MRFA & only 2 final candidates - Su-57 Vs F-35.
While F-35 would be the most tempting honey trap so far, the Su-57 is under fire too not seen as proper full 5gen stealth. There are many things which can be learnt from current 5gen jets. Some of us are also concerned that it may impact AMCA program. The following is a brief comparison. The "possible" features have to be TIMELY implemented expecially when global tech evolution is at 6gen R&D level.
1734967608325.png
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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Fitting Ramjet missiles is a challenge bcoz of their long intakes, it becomes difficult to stagger them.
There is an early render by artist Kuntal Biswas of 2 Astr-3 SFDR /bay, total 4 AAMs, but pic is angled, the bay is short with big gap in between.

View attachment 72788

He has also made multiple CADs of Astr-3 SFDR BUT with different fin & ramjet intake dimensions.
View attachment 72789
The 3rd one is the only one with bottom view so if we resize it with IWB then still it will be a TIGHT UNSAFE fit of 3 staggered AAMs/bay.
And if we consider 3 staggered Meteors (AAM CAD by artist "AkelaFreedom") then although it is 6" shorter but its intakes & fins seem to be wider & overflows out of bay.

View attachment 72790

Editing in MS Paint, Photoshop, etc can produce inaccurate errors.
It is best accurate if the artists themselves produce this kind of images. But most of them don't.

If the Ramjet intake is shortened then 6 Astr-3 SFDR AAMs might fit relatively better. But there could be military safety specs which may or may not allow this.
1735379698921.png


We see Akash-1 SAM also has Ramjets which don't extend all the way backwards.
1735379783871.png


The intake fairing in Meteor is long bcoz it houses some electronics, fin actuators. Same could be with Astr-3 SFDR. But if the AAM body can be adjusted then it can favor AMCA.
1735380147281.jpeg
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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If the Ramjet intake is shortened then 6 Astr-3 SFDR AAMs might fit relatively better. But there could be military safety specs which may or may not allow this.
View attachment 72888

We see Akash-1 SAM also has Ramjets which don't extend all the way backwards.
View attachment 72889

The intake fairing in Meteor is long bcoz it houses some electronics, fin actuators. Same could be with Astr-3 SFDR. But if the AAM body can be adjusted then it can favor AMCA.
View attachment 72890

Continuing on this agenda of internal load, 2 days back someone shared PL-15E AAM with folding fins from Zhuai airshow. AFAIK big/heavy missile do have folding fins but a medium missile is yet to be seen with AIM-120 AMRAAM, Meteor, etc. R-77 have folding grid fins.
1735556488872.png


Now there is no CAD of Meteor, Astr-3 SFDR with folding fins & i can't use PL-15E to depict in AMCA.
So i'm just clipping the fins in SFDR pic. IDK the safety gap spec but this looks like a safe fit, that too w/o staggering.

1735556524098.png


And i had already shown that 6 staggered AAMs of short fin version of Astr-2 could easily fit. So if we use folding fin version of it now then total 8 staggered AAMs or 16 SAAW bombs could fit. The ejectors shoud be firm & free from vibrations.

1735556542398.jpeg


If this config is considered unsafe then in worst case 6 AAMs or 12 SAAW bombs can fit easily.
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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IWB versions of ARMs (Anti Radiation Missiles):
Kh-58UShKE, 650 Kg, 4.2-4.8m long, 380-400 mm diameter, 149 Kg warhead, 250 Km range, Mach 3.6
AGM-88G AARGM-ER, 467 Kg, 13'4/4.06m long, 292mm diameter, 68 Kg warhead, 300 Km range, Mach 2.9
But Rudram-1 cannot fit in AMCA'a IWB.
Rudram-1, 600 Kg, 18'/5.5m long, 340+/-mm diameter, 55 Kg warhead, 150-200 Km range, Mach 2
Rudram-2 & 3 are going to be even bigger.
If DoD makes IWB version of Rudram, it will make AMCA a dangerous SAM hunter.
There were Ramjet version missiles tested earlier but AARGM-ER uses modified solid fuel rocket motor.

1736792846694.png
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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After potential stealthy SAM hunter, AMCA has potential to engage naval & other surface targets also from stand-off distance.
If we compare some present weapons like AGM-158A JASSM, JSM/NSM, Storm-Shadow/SCALP-EG, Taurus KEPD-350, SOM-J, etc then they're still bigger than IWB, but they can be scaled down.
Below is example of JASSM & JSM with their original dimension compared to 4.2m long IWB:

1737907363927.png


But their adjusted size variants are being integrated in F-35. Similar weapons can be developed for AMCA too.

1737907379892.png

1737907392935.png
 

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This is all nice and well but when will we see the first prototype of the AMCA?
 

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This is all nice and well but when will we see the first prototype of the AMCA?

It is supposed to fly early 2028, so I guess we will see first prototype taking shape 2026 and 2027.

Tentative schedule hopefully delivered upon as India is falling behind.
 

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It is supposed to fly early 2028, so I guess we will see first prototype taking shape 2026 and 2027.

Tentative schedule hopefully delivered upon as India is falling behind.

Here is current update from project director ambitious provisional timeline:



 

Bhartiya Sainik

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Continuing the chain of posts for weapons in AMCA's IWB which is officially quoted 4.2m X 2.2m,
After observing the designs of all BVR-AAMs made globally, and intention of F-35 & J-35 to increase their IWB capacity to 6 AAMs, I had shown by diagrams that only 4 big-fin Astr-1/2 AAMs can fit in IWB but,
6 staggered Astr-2 short-fin AAMs (like AIM-120-D in F-22),
or 6 modified Astr-3 SFDR,
or 8 folding-fin Astr-2 AAMs can fit in (like Chinese PL-15).

I took the CAD of Astr-2 big-fin by artist "Akela freedom" & edited in Paint to match short-fin version made by artist "Kuntal Biswas" which is also identical to AIM-120-D. So the forward fixed fin has been shortened & shifted forward & rear fin leading edge more swept back, that's all, simple quick edit.

1739619067605.png


Now we can see the comparison more clear & precise, 4 & 6 big-fin AAMs vs 6 short-fin AAMs in the outine of official dimension of IWB. Unfortunately an updated CAD is not released yet by any artist or DoD.

1739619098527.png


I did this few weeks back but I waited for Aero-India, hoping they would officially increase the IWB capacity & showcase, but didn't happen. But this is not an up-hill task & can be done easily till IOC jet.

1739619127862.png


There is no separator wall in the IWB. 1 door panel slightly overlaps on the panel of other side door, means both doors have to open full to drop any weapon, exposing full IWB.
I hope this gets corrected in IOC jet.
 

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Sound quality isnt so good, but some interesting updates inside from the additional project Director for AMCA Mr. Nagesh.

Prototype and Production Timeline: 00:00 Number of Prototypes and Building Frequency: 00:42 Maturity Level of Stealth Technology: 02:47 Maturity Level of Flush Sensors and Antennas: 03:39 Budget Allocation for Prototype Building and Technology Development: 05:06 Capabilities of Each Prototype: 06:11 Internal Weapon Bay Capacity: 07:08 Weapon Development Status and Integration: 08:59 EOTS (Electro-Optical Targeting System) Development: 09:31 Rollout and First Flight in 3 Years: 10:30 Optional Manning in Second Version: 11:42 Compute Capacity, Hardware, and Power Requirements: 12:39 Second Prototype Flight Confidence: 13:42 Learning from Other Programs (Korean, Turkish): 14:27 Production Plans and Private Sector Involvement: 15:29 Design Work and Private Sector Contribution: 16:47 AMCA Team Strength and Manpower: 18:36 Engine Clarity and GE414 Selection: 19:19 Naval Version (TEDBF) and Engine Power: 20:12

 

Nilgiri

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What?
Did he say 2034 at the beginning?

Yes, they are planning 5 prototypes between 2028 - 2035.

2035 is when serial production is planned based on those 5 prototypes, so as little unproven risk is carried to production...to start replacing (along with tejas mk 2 and any tejas mk1 A still being continued) large numbers of current fighters that will be retiring then in major amounts.

This is HAL realistic take rather than pushing optimism of something that is too intense for the capacity and funding that has been laid out so far....that has its contours baked in from 4 trillion USD nominal GDP growing to say 10 trillion and competing pressures (given India's population size) always from govt budget and overall qualitative state of its instutions for military and civil and so on and the apex capacities of its private sector to leverage past that (that are still taking shape now for very apex domains like 5th generation military aircraft). i.e the basic drag imposed by GDP per capita around 3000 USD per capita, which is very low still.

If its topped up more than that to accelerate it (easier said than done), we will have to see what that is then, but this is the current snapshot at hand they are giving.

This is why the interim 5th gen acquisition externally has its current momentum, the window of lookdown+shootdown that @Gessler describes India not wanting to lose for a good decade.

The more behind you are (and have your appraisal of window of time you will be behind), the higher the premium to make up for it basically.
 

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Yes, they are planning 5 prototypes between 2028 - 2035.

2035 is when serial production is planned based on those 5 prototypes, so as little unproven risk is carried to production...to start replacing (along with tejas mk 2 and any tejas mk1 A still being continued) large numbers of current fighters that will be retiring then in major amounts.

This is HAL realistic take rather than pushing optimism of something that is too intense for the capacity and funding that has been laid out so far....that has its contours baked in from 4 trillion USD nominal GDP growing to say 10 trillion and competing pressures (given India's population size) always from govt budget and overall qualitative state of its instutions for military and civil and so on and the apex capacities of its private sector to leverage past that (that are still taking shape now for very apex domains like 5th generation military aircraft). i.e the basic drag imposed by GDP per capita around 3000 USD per capita, which is very low still.

If its topped up more than that to accelerate it (easier said than done), we will have to see what that is then, but this is the current snapshot at hand they are giving.

This is why the interim 5th gen acquisition externally has its current momentum, the window of lookdown+shootdown that @Gessler describes India not wanting to lose for a good decade.

The more behind you are (and have your appraisal of window of time you will be behind), the higher the premium to make up for it basically.
But then you need those F-35's,you better make a deal with the US.
 

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