TR Navy Naval Programs

[Kaan Azman]

Idea of the Navy appears to be a nuclear submarine being a pillar of the CSG, not a substitute for MUGEM. They see it as a paver and an extra eye to hang around at the front.

 

[uçuyorum]

As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but nuclear submarines usually carry far more torpedoes/missiles than diesel submarines, as they are usually far larger. And since Mediterranean is deep sea, they could remain pretty well hidden and remain submerged for far longer which gives them an advantage in first strike capability. So it wouldn't be for just force projection, it would increase our naval power in our own waters and I think that should be our first and foremost aim when planning not just our navy but all of our military.

I mean depends on size. Ohio class is 16000 tonnes and can carry 7 tomahawk in a cell or same cell can carry one ballistic missile. It's huge, heavier than ticonderoga cruiser

 

[boredaf]

I mean depends on size. Ohio class is 16000 tonnes and can carry 7 tomahawk in a cell or same cell can carry one ballistic missile. It's huge, heavier than ticonderoga cruiser

Ohio class is a nuclear submarine though?

 

[uçuyorum]

Ohio class is a nuclear submarine though?

Yes that's what I was responding to, you can have huge nuclear subs, there are those smaller than milden as well.

 

[boredaf]

Yes that's what I was responding to, you can have huge nuclear subs, there are those smaller than milden as well.

And I would expect that we would want something definitely bigger. Then, we can have more than enough force to protect our claims around Mediterranean with far fewer risks than a carrier group would face.

 

[chngr]

What value does an SSN add over a large AIP SSK with VLS?

More speed...and it can sustain this all the time

 

[Anmdt]

What value does an SSN add over a large AIP SSK with VLS? Greater endurance over open seas.

Particularly these two matters:

Higher submerged speed - evasion once detected or fleeing after delivering payloads (mines, spy AUVs etc.), yet contradicts the silence propulsion while doing so and only to be used when submarine is "detected", or when the crew believes they are detected.

Eliminating snorkeling, it is done frequently and not really a cool event, the sub can neither cease it immediately and dive, if caught, and it is necessary for the batteries.

Plus batteries are not cool, heats up and constantly cooled if loaded heavily and generates gases (particularly at high speeds).

Does it worth the bang? I am not sure too, it is currently just a plan ahead of Milden. We first will have Milden-I, then Milden-II and maybe lastly what they call as "Nukden". Officially circulating with the high command so they have it in the long term plans since awhile ago, but "long term" here is crucial. Probably referrring to 20+, 30+ years from now.

And i am assured at those dates SMR's will be something similar to submarine diesel engines which you may plug and go.

 

[Saithan]

Particularly these two matters:

Higher submerged speed - evasion once detected or fleeing after delivering payloads (mines, spy AUVs etc.), yet contradicts the silence propulsion while doing so and only to be used when submarine is "detected", or when the crew believes they are detected.

Eliminating snorkeling, it is done frequently and not really a cool event, the sub can neither cease it immediately and dive, if caught, and it is necessary for the batteries.

Plus batteries are not cool, heats up and constantly cooled if loaded heavily and generates gases (particularly at high speeds).

Does it worth the bang? I am not sure too, it is currently just a plan ahead of Milden. We first will have Milden-I, then Milden-II and maybe lastly what they call as "Nukden". Officially circulating with the high command so they have it in the long term plans since awhile ago, but "long term" here is crucial. Probably referrring to 20+, 30+ years from now.

And i am assured at those dates SMR's will be something similar to submarine diesel engines which you may plug and go.

Do you know if there any work in progres on making smaller and more compact nuclear power plant for submersible platforms ? In the world I mean. I would imagine that we would need to be able to build our own nuclear power plants in order to venture into anything like nuclear subs, but I could be wrong.

 

[Sanchez]

New brochures for TF-2000, I Class, OPV and PN Milgem from ASFAT.

Ürünlerimiz - ASFAT

Ortaya koyduğumuz ve Ar-Ge çalışmalarını yürüttüğümüz ürünler.

asfat.com.tr

Thanks to Catfishblues.

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1884975820998848916

TCG Sakarya subs modernization completed

 

[Yasar_TR]

Attack submarines are the most vital weapons of every navy.

The modern attack submarine is, in fact, a wolf that hunts alone. Apart from protecting surface ships and convoys, they are the nightmare of every surface platform with their primary mission of stealth attack; and of coastal and deep land targets with their long-range cruise missiles.

We can examine modern attack submarines in 3 different categories in terms of their propulsion systems:

1. Diesel engine/diesel generator: These move with their diesel engines on the surface (and at depths close to the surface - snorkel depth). They also charge their batteries with a diesel generator. They are driven silently while submerged with their lead-acid batteries. In the newest models of these, their lead-acid batteries are evolving into much more efficient Li-Ion batteries.
The speed of submarines with lead-acid batteries does not exceed 20 knots while submerged. They also quickly consume the battery at this speed. Their duration at depth is measured in hours; at economical speeds, a few days. Li-Ion battery submarines can stay at depths for 1 week-10 days and can move at high speed in an emergency. Japanese Taigei submarines are a good example of this.

2. Air-independent propulsion submarines. (AIP ): The best example of these is the Reis Class submarines. These submarines produce electricity while submerged with hydrogen fuel cell technology and Proton Exchange Membrane, keep the lead-acid batteries constantly charged and can stay underwater for 2-3 weeks without surfacing. However, they make 4 knots economically and 8 knots at high speed. If they move at 20 knots, there is no difference from the diesel submarine above as they would deplete their batteries. When the AIP and PEM systems are not working, they are standard diesel-powered submarines.

3. Nuclear-powered submarines: These are submarines that are propelled by a small nuclear reactor and can move silently with the electricity provided by this reactor; in addition, they can stay underwater for months by obtaining oxygen from the water with this electricity. However, they have dive times that do not exceed 90 days in terms of the food they can carry. Also, since the psychological health of the crew is taken into consideration while submerged, very long dives are not made. These submarines can reach speeds of 30+ knots underwater. Since the reactor can theoretically operate for decades (20-30 years), it is possible for these submarines to operate for a very long time without stopping at a port.

Japanese Soryu class submarines were AIP submarines. However, they produced the last 2 submarines as Li-Ion class. And they are producing the last Taigei class with Li-Ion propulsion too.
Japanese submarine captains complained about the slow speeds of AIP submarines, emphasizing the importance of getting away from the area they are in quickly, after using torpedoes, and in an emergency, and as a result, the Japanese Navy turned to the Li-Ion system in its new submarine concept.

Inspired by the Japanese, we are also studying developing a Li-Ion propulsion system. Although AIP propulsion is planned for Milden, the complexity and external dependency of this system may push us towards Li-Ion powered submarines.

Although nuclear powered submarines seem to be the Nirvana of this business and these submarines can go much faster and dive deeper, the fact that the reactor is constantly running means that many pumps and mechanisms produce noise. In this respect, modern Li-Ion and AIP powered submarines are quieter. These features have been highlighted many times in naval operations.

 

[dBSPL]

Another excellent post. Thanks Yasar_TR üstad.

***

IMHO, my shortest categorization mentality is that submarines are an offensive element, while surface platforms are basically for area dominance.

Submarines can paralyze a navy's logistical links or maritime trade, and in some specific cases even its surface strike force. This is a very strategic force that can add another layer up front to the AD area established by surface and other support means and keep the enemy's power projection away from territorial waters. Fortunately, our naval tradition has given due importance to the submarine fleet for decades. If we gain access to nuclear-propulsion in the coming decades, we will be able to initiate this deterrent from their seas wherever the enemy is, with submarines that are air-independent and capable of high-speed submerged cruise.

 

[UkroTurk]

Attack submarines are the most vital weapons of every navy.

The modern attack submarine is, in fact, a wolf that hunts alone. Apart from protecting surface ships and convoys, they are the nightmare of every surface platform with their primary mission of stealth attack; and of coastal and deep land targets with their long-range cruise missiles.

We can examine modern attack submarines in 3 different categories in terms of their propulsion systems:

1. Diesel engine/diesel generator: These move with their diesel engines on the surface (and at depths close to the surface - snorkel depth). They also charge their batteries with a diesel generator. They are driven silently while submerged with their lead-acid batteries. In the newest models of these, their lead-acid batteries are evolving into much more efficient Li-Ion batteries.
The speed of submarines with lead-acid batteries does not exceed 20 knots while submerged. They also quickly consume the battery at this speed. Their duration at depth is measured in hours; at economical speeds, a few days. Li-Ion battery submarines can stay at depths for 1 week-10 days and can move at high speed in an emergency. Japanese Taigei submarines are a good example of this.

2. Air-independent propulsion submarines. (AIP ): The best example of these is the Reis Class submarines. These submarines produce electricity while submerged with hydrogen fuel cell technology and Proton Exchange Membrane, keep the lead-acid batteries constantly charged and can stay underwater for 2-3 weeks without surfacing. However, they make 4 knots economically and 8 knots at high speed. If they move at 20 knots, there is no difference from the diesel submarine above as they would deplete their batteries. When the AIP and PEM systems are not working, they are standard diesel-powered submarines.

3. Nuclear-powered submarines: These are submarines that are propelled by a small nuclear reactor and can move silently with the electricity provided by this reactor; in addition, they can stay underwater for months by obtaining oxygen from the water with this electricity. However, they have dive times that do not exceed 90 days in terms of the food they can carry. Also, since the psychological health of the crew is taken into consideration while submerged, very long dives are not made. These submarines can reach speeds of 30+ knots underwater. Since the reactor can theoretically operate for decades (20-30 years), it is possible for these submarines to operate for a very long time without stopping at a port.

Japanese Soryu class submarines were AIP submarines. However, they produced the last 2 submarines as Li-Ion class. And they are producing the last Taigei class with Li-Ion propulsion too.
Japanese submarine captains complained about the slow speeds of AIP submarines, emphasizing the importance of getting away from the area they are in quickly, after using torpedoes, and in an emergency, and as a result, the Japanese Navy turned to the Li-Ion system in its new submarine concept.

Inspired by the Japanese, we are also studying developing a Li-Ion propulsion system. Although AIP propulsion is planned for Milden, the complexity and external dependency of this system may push us towards Li-Ion powered submarines.

Although nuclear powered submarines seem to be the Nirvana of this business and these submarines can go much faster and dive deeper, the fact that the reactor is constantly running means that many pumps and mechanisms produce noise. In this respect, modern Li-Ion and AIP powered submarines are quieter. These features have been highlighted many times in naval operations.

What about Li-ion batteries with fuel cell hydrogen combination? Underwater when you need speed use Li-ion batteries, when you just need cruising or approaching the territory of missionswitch to fuel-cell hydrogen.
They could add our hydrogen Milden some Li-ion batteries which would give flexibility of speed in critical conditions.


Even i found the place for additional Li-ion batteries. Wait.

Make the Li-ion battery replacable and use when the mission requires additional speed. You don't always need underwater delivery vessel.

Jesus Christ I am genius

 

[Fuzuli NL]

What about Li-ion batteries with fuel cell hydrogen combination? Underwater when you need speed use Li-ion batteries, when you just need cruising or approaching the territory of missionswitch to fuel-cell hydrogen.
They could add our hydrogen Milden some Li-ion batteries which would give flexibility of speed in critical conditions.


Even i found the place for additional Li-ion batteries. Wait.

View attachment 73348

Make the Li-ion battery replacable and use when the mission requires additional speed. You don't always need underwater delivery vessel.

Jesus Christ I am genius

I don't think you're taking the immense underwater pressure into consideration.

 

[UkroTurk]

I don't think you're taking the immense underwater pressure into consideration.

I think the problem neither is pressure nor vulnerable structure of batteries.


If the pressure were problem they would not put there mini sub.
Why fuel cell propulsion is slow?

The problem would be lack of sterling engines. Li-ion batteries would need generators when the sub is underwater. Look at Japanese soryu class , they have 4 sterling engines ( which are noisy!)


Edit: sorry for false information. Last gen Japanese sub doesn't require sterling generator!!!

So do we have still chance ? No, because additional battery package would weight minimum 50-100 tons. This would disturb the balance of submarine.

JS Tōryū - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Anmdt]

They are driven silently

Past 10 years in my job, never seen one silent diesel engine. They run pretty noisy on submarines too. Yet we have got a lovely bulkhead (well - isolated) that keeps it away from operations center.

Despite of having maximimum speeds over 20 knots, lead-acid batteries generate toxic gases when heavily loaded and tends to warm up beyond how it can be cooled. I am sure it can run more than several hours at maximum speed (theoretically considering the battery capacity only) but the battery temperature and aforementioned gases wouldn't let it happen.

Been lucky to dive with a submarine before and after MLU, and lastly with one Reis during trials. And i came to this conclusion; the real mastery of diesel-electric submarines come with the PMM (Synchronous motor) and double-platform isolators. AIP, Li-Ion, Lead-acid introduces a little 'bump' there. AIP indeed gives a one-time shot skipping few snorkels and gives an upper hand but it is not enough alone.

While with Preveze and Gür Class Modernizations we are taking these submarines to what Reis Class have, in terms of electronics, sensors, integration of weapon - network systems, the difference of motors and double platform are absolute.

Possibly these two techs will be the bottleneck at Milden programme, i have no doubts on that AIP and Li-Ion can be achieved sooner than PMM double-isolating platforms.

 

[Strong AI]

From January 23

An agreement regarding to the procurement of Radar, Electronic Warfare, Electro-Optic, Communication, Navigation, and Weapon Systems for the naval platforms has been signed between ASELSAN and STM total valuing EUR 36.7 Million. The deliveries will be made between the years 2025-2028.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1882412418825171255

 

[Sanchez]

3rd MKE 76mm gun was delivered to Istanbul Shipyard Command to be installed onto İstif Class TCG İzmir. First two guns were installed on the first two Hisar Class OPVs.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1889966134134469057

 

[Yasar_TR]

3rd MKE 76mm gun was delivered to Istanbul Shipyard Command to be installed onto İstif Class TCG İzmir. First two guns were installed on the first two Hisar Class OPVs.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1889966134134469057

How about the one they fitted on to TCG Gaziantep?

MKE’s 76 mm Barrel Enters Inventory on TCG Gaziantep | TURDEF

The Turkish MoD announced on social media that the foreign-made 76 mm main naval gun barrel on TCG Gaziantep has been replaced with MKE’s indigenous barrel.

turdef.com

And the one one TCG Beykoz?

MKE’s 76/62 mm Naval Gun is Installed on TCG Beykoz Corvette | TURDEF

MKE Inc design and development of the 76/62 mm naval gun is installed on the Burak Class TCG Beykoz (F503) Corvette to conduct test firings.

turdef.com

 

[mohammadtd]

Past 10 years in my job, never seen one silent diesel engine. They run pretty noisy on submarines too. Yet we have got a lovely bulkhead (well - isolated) that keeps it away from operations center.

Despite of having maximimum speeds over 20 knots, lead-acid batteries generate toxic gases when heavily loaded and tends to warm up beyond how it can be cooled. I am sure it can run more than several hours at maximum speed (theoretically considering the battery capacity only) but the battery temperature and aforementioned gases wouldn't let it happen.

Been lucky to dive with a submarine before and after MLU, and lastly with one Reis during trials. And i came to this conclusion; the real mastery of diesel-electric submarines come with the PMM (Synchronous motor) and double-platform isolators. AIP, Li-Ion, Lead-acid introduces a little 'bump' there. AIP indeed gives a one-time shot skipping few snorkels and gives an upper hand but it is not enough alone.

While with Preveze and Gür Class Modernizations we are taking these submarines to what Reis Class have, in terms of electronics, sensors, integration of weapon - network systems, the difference of motors and double platform are absolute.

Possibly these two techs will be the bottleneck at Milden programme, i have no doubts on that AIP and Li-Ion can be achieved sooner than PMM double-isolating platforms.

Would you please shed light on Turkey's future API program? I don't see any improvement on that. Thank you in advance.