TR Propulsion Systems

[Quasar]

Can you give a source for that please ?
If that is the case then it makes all the difference.
Accodng to TEI’s site the width is 86cm and the height (which includes all the other paraphernalia) is 110cm. So one would think the diameter is close to 86cm.

View attachment 69476
But if it is 62.4cm as you say , then the difference in thrust is self explanatory.
Besides, f404 has a three stage LP fan section that does deliver a great deal of air in to the HP compressor section against our TF6K’s 2 stage LP fan section.

again eventhough it is not clear another possible reference point is stated 15 cm and F110-GE-129

''SAHA EXPO Daily, President & CEO of TEI Prof. Mahmut AKŞİT also pointed out that if the radii of the relevant parts in the engine are expanded by 15 cm, the TEI-TF6000 can be converted into a turbofan engine similar to the F110-GE-129''

radii of the ''relevant parts''???

for instance if we take the Blower outer diameter For F110-GE-129 it is 970 mm

For TF 6000 can be somewhere around 670 mm

 

[Quasar]

We know that the GE-F404 engine‘s diameter is 89cm and it’s fan inlet diameter is 79cm. But we don’t know the fan inlet diameter of our TF6K. But looking at the over all engine diameters of the two, it is logical to presume they too are similar.

again eventhough it is not clear another possible reference point is stated 15 cm and F110-GE-129

''SAHA EXPO Daily, President & CEO of TEI Prof. Mahmut AKŞİT also pointed out that if the radii of the relevant parts in the engine are expanded by 15 cm, the TEI-TF6000 can be converted into a turbofan engine similar to the F110-GE-129''

radii of the ''relevant parts''???

for instance if we take the Blower outer diameter For F110-GE-129 it is 970 mm
View attachment 69477
For TF 6000 can be somewhere around 670 mm

F 404 max diameter is 89 cm inlet diameter is 71 cm



if max diameter for TF 6000-10000 is 86 - 87 cm inlet diameter can be around 68 - 69 cm seems like a logical conlusion???

-potentially available structure for 17.000 Ib & + that may still needs major adjustments which we need to master with KAAN engine eventually anyway ?

-current more efficent form for ANKA 3 - KIZILELMA?

 

[uçuyorum]

TF6000 is fatter, it has significantly higher bypass ratio than F404. So F404 has probably a much larger core and it I think uses twice as much fuel as TF6000

 

[TheInsider]

Can you give a source for that please ?
If that is the case then it makes all the difference.
Accodng to TEI’s site the width is 86cm and the height (which includes all the other paraphernalia) is 110cm. So one would think the diameter is close to 86cm.

View attachment 69476
But if it is 62.4cm as you say , then the difference in thrust is self explanatory.
Besides, f404 has a three stage LP fan section that does deliver a great deal of air in to the HP compressor section against our TF6K’s 2 stage LP fan section.

I have no concrete written source. This is what people told me when i spoke to people in the past. The number might not be exactly 624mm (it is what i remember) but i doubt it is anything higher than say 670-680mm because when i saw the engine mockup up close it was smaller than F-404(I have seen both engines up close). If we compare TF-6000 and F-404s fan section indeed TF-6000 is a 2 stage fan but it has better production technology so i won't be surprised if it performs as good as a 3 stage fan or even outperforms it.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I have no concrete written source. This is what people told me when i spoke to people in the past. The number might not be exactly 624mm (it is what i remember) but i doubt it is anything higher than say 670-680mm because when i saw the engine mockup up close it was smaller than F-404(I have seen both engines up close). If we compare TF-6000 and F-404s fan section indeed TF-6000 is a 2 stage fan but it has better production technology so i won't be surprised if it performs as good as a 3 stage fan or even outperforms it.

Well ,
taking below picture as basis

This picture on my screen measures with my engineers’ compass, 104mm long with 28.7mm fan width.
if the length of the engine is as stated in TEI site, 2250mm , then pro-rata the fan diameter is 620mm. That overlaps well with your 624mm measurement.

Re: your comment on our 2 stage LP compressor performing better,
it has to be noted that the newer f404 engines now use blisk compressor stages with CMC materials in hot sections in their EDE and EPE (Enhanced Durability and Enhanced Performance Engines) versions with most probably 4th generation single Crystal blades and friction welded LP turbines as per the newer f110s.


EDIT

I carried out a similar exercise with a F404 picture and came out to the conclusion that the fan diameter was 70cm.
The 89cm diameter figure is the overall diameter of the engine with all the paraphernalia attached to it. Infact in specifications that I found later, the inlet fan size of f404 is given as having 71cm diameter.

 

[Quasar]

624mm diameter fan is for AI-322F


I highly doupt that any mock up is ideal

Facts

1- F 404 max diameter is 89 cm inlet diameter is 71 cm

2- TF 6000 - 10000 860 mm - 870 mm respectivly, inlet diameter is ....

3- the diffrence between F 404 and F 110 is 31 cm

4- Mahmut AKŞİT ''the radii of the relevant parts in the engine are expanded by 15 cm our engine can be converted into a turbofan engine similar to the F110-GE-129'' ... simply means 30 cm expansion in diameter

Conclusion

F 404 and TF 6000 - 10000 are totally diffrent products with diffrent requirments and philosophies

F 404 is the the definition of reliability and affordable ... designed to almost always provide enough air flow to engine to prevent engine stall even in high angle of attack and quick response time of the engine that was why it was the choice of the US navy and it was and still is an almost perfect choice for trainers and light aircrafts

TF 6000 -10000 we plan to use them in our unmaned platforms for instance we want KIZILELMA to fly for 5 hours for ANKA 3 it is even more

Yet dimensional resemblence is undeniable

 

[Yasar_TR]

624mm diameter fan is for AI-322F


I highly doupt that any mock up is ideal

Facts

1- F 404 max diameter is 89 cm inlet diameter is 71 cm

2- TF 6000 - 10000 860 mm - 870 mm respectivly, inlet diameter is ....

3- the diffrence between F 404 and F 110 is 31 cm

4- Mahmut AKŞİT ''the radii of the relevant parts in the engine are expanded by 15 cm our engine can be converted into a turbofan engine similar to the F110-GE-129'' ... simply means 30 cm expansion in diameter

Conclusion

F 404 and TF 6000 - 10000 are totally diffrent products with diffrent requirments and philosophies

F 404 is the the definition of reliability and affordable ... designed to almost always provide enough air flow to engine to prevent engine stall even in high angle of attack and quick response time of the engine that was why it was the choice of the US navy and it was and still is an almost perfect choice for trainers and light aircrafts

TF 6000 -10000 we plan to use then in our unmaned platforms for instance we want KIZILELMA to fly for 5 hours for ANKA 3 it is even more

Yet dimensional resemblence is undeniable

F404 and F414 are the epitome of how military turbine engines can be made to be reliable.

The F404 has a version called F412 with a very large inlet fan. This is a non afterburning engine specifically made for A-12 Avenger 2 plane. This engine developed very high thrust due to the large fan it utilised. In F414, they used a similar but comparatively smaller fan than the one used in F412 but larger than the one in F404. This fan provided a lot of air to flow through the compression and combustion section. To accommodate this extra air flow and sustain efficient burn, accordingly, they had to enlarge the diameter of the f412’s and F414’s combustion chambers. This way they were able to achieve 13000lbf dry thrust from the f414 which had essentially the same dimensions as f404, apart from the larger fan and bigger combustor. This was called a “trapped vortex combustor”.

A-12 Avenger 2

Whence the A-12 project was cancelled so was F412 engine. But it paved the way for f414.

With the EDE (Enhanced DurabilityEngine) version, F414 has gone through an upgrade of materials and aerodynamic design in it’s HP Turbine stage, allowing it to go hotter without problems and by reducing HP compressor stage by one from 7 to 6 it was made possible to lower SFC and improve durability by 3 times.

The EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) version of F414 has been furnished with a totally new Fan, Core and Turbine section that gave a 20% increase to thrust level, achieving 26400lbf with AB.

GE has also been conducting experiments on F414, successfully, by replacing LP turbines with CMC materials.

I only hope that at TEI, our engineers, being part of GE family, are making note of these innovations and will in time, apply them to our own engines too.

 

[2033]

Are we giving up power because we want our engine to stay in the air longer?????

 

[uçuyorum]

Are we giving up power because we want our engine to stay in the air longer?????

I think bypass ratio is a consideration for endurance, that doesn't necessarily mean giving up power.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Are we giving up power because we want our engine to stay in the air longer?????

Without being pedantic, first of all, with turbofan engines on a plane, there is no power but thrust.
No we are not giving up on thrust. By increasing bypass ratio slightly, we are making an engine that should in theory operate more efficiently at denser air that gives better thrust levels. So up to 40000ft our engine should perform with better fuel efficiency.
A lower bypass ratio engine will have better dogfighting and quicker thrust delivery under extreme conditions and at high angle of attack. But TF-6000 is still a low bypass engine. So it is suitable for fighters. For continuous high thrust the slightly higher bypass ratio will help achieve better efficiency and fuel economy.
This engine will also be cooler on the outside as more cool air is bypassed around the engine core, helping the plane to be stealthier with less heat signature.
This is an ideal engine for UCAVs like KE and Anka-3.

 

[Saithan]

Any new info on powerpack for the Firtinas ?

It's been a while since we heard anything about it.

 

[Strong AI]

Any new info on powerpack for the Firtinas ?

It's been a while since we heard anything about it.

afaik only this

UTKU (1000 HP) serial production at end of 2026

 

[Saithan]

afaik only this

Thanks.

It's amazing how very little there is about landforces and the progress on their projects. This silence doesn't bode well. Even if it is to fly under the radar (which I doubt they're able to keep progress a secret with so many spies around).

There should be some news for the general public.

Being so silent about is very detrimental.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Thanks.

It's amazing how very little there is about landforces and the progress on their projects. This silence doesn't bode well. Even if it is to fly under the radar (which I doubt they're able to keep progress a secret with so many spies around).

There should be some news for the general public.

Being so silent about is very detrimental.

There may be some decision making process involved here. In conventional practice UTKU is the engine of choice going forward. But due to behind the frontline operational nature of these howitzers, the hybrid engine is also a good solution. MKE made a point of it with their prototype.

GÜRHAN (155 mm Kundağı Motorlu Hibrit Obüs)

GÜRHAN (155 mm Kundağı Motorlu Hibrit Obüs)

www.mke.gov.tr

Turkish MKE to produce electric version of "Fırtına" self-propelled howitzer - Defense Here

Deputy Chairman of the Board of Directors and General Manager of Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKE), Yasin Akdere, said today that the company

www.defensehere.com

 

[Saithan]

There may be some decision making process involved here. In conventional practice UTKU is the engine of choice going forward. But due to behind the frontline operational nature of these howitzers, the hybrid engine is also a good solution. MKE made a point of it with their prototype.

GÜRHAN (155 mm Kundağı Motorlu Hibrit Obüs)

GÜRHAN (155 mm Kundağı Motorlu Hibrit Obüs)

www.mke.gov.tr

View attachment 69502

Turkish MKE to produce electric version of "Fırtına" self-propelled howitzer - Defense Here

Deputy Chairman of the Board of Directors and General Manager of Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKE), Yasin Akdere, said today that the company

www.defensehere.com

The Hybrid solution is very impressive, and when I look at the numbers it should be a no brainer. There are however somethings that only the wise know from experience, so I assume that may be why we haven't swapped to Hybrid solution.

But I don't see why they can't have several prototypes and test them thoroughly while still acquiring some standard conventional ones.

I know that diversifying is more expensive for us, but it is necessary to be able to change mindset as well.

I think this could be an example of one of those old doctrins that needs to be challenged and changed or at least battlefield tested @Kartal1

 

[UkroTurk]

What could TAI make with TF6000 something else?

The first
8PAX single engine jet. Ukrainian engine was used

Comp Air Jet - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Or micro jets with super cruise capability.

1500kg empty weight jet with 25kN engine could reach super cruise 1.4 mach

İmagine it was manned and unmanned modular Cockpit.

ATG Javelin - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Bede BD-10 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

KB SAT SR-10 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Hongdu JL-8 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[No Name]

Did Azra enter mass production yet? if i'm remember correctly it was planned to enter praduction some time this year.

 

[Kartal1]

The Hybrid solution is very impressive, and when I look at the numbers it should be a no brainer. There are however somethings that only the wise know from experience, so I assume that may be why we haven't swapped to Hybrid solution.

But I don't see why they can't have several prototypes and test them thoroughly while still acquiring some standard conventional ones.

I know that diversifying is more expensive for us, but it is necessary to be able to change mindset as well.

I think this could be an example of one of those old doctrins that needs to be challenged and changed or at least battlefield tested @Kartal1

I am also on the opinion that it will be good to explore the option. It's just that I am not so confident in MKE making it work as intended.

 

[Nilgiri]

F404 and F414 are the epitome of how military turbine engines can be made to be reliable.

The F404 has a version called F412 with a very large inlet fan. This is a non afterburning engine specifically made for A-12 Avenger 2 plane. This engine developed very high thrust due to the large fan it utilised. In F414, they used a similar but comparatively smaller fan than the one used in F412 but larger than the one in F404. This fan provided a lot of air to flow through the compression and combustion section. To accommodate this extra air flow and sustain efficient burn, accordingly, they had to enlarge the diameter of the f412’s and F414’s combustion chambers. This way they were able to achieve 13000lbf dry thrust from the f414 which had essentially the same dimensions as f404, apart from the larger fan and bigger combustor. This was called a “trapped vortex combustor”.

A-12 Avenger 2
View attachment 69491
Whence the A-12 project was cancelled so was F412 engine. But it paved the way for f414.

With the EDE (Enhanced DurabilityEngine) version, F414 has gone through an upgrade of materials and aerodynamic design in it’s HP Turbine stage, allowing it to go hotter without problems and by reducing HP compressor stage by one from 7 to 6 it was made possible to lower SFC and improve durability by 3 times.

The EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) version of F414 has been furnished with a totally new Fan, Core and Turbine section that gave a 20% increase to thrust level, achieving 26400lbf with AB.

GE has also been conducting experiments on F414, successfully, by replacing LP turbines with CMC materials.

I only hope that at TEI, our engineers, being part of GE family, are making note of these innovations and will in time, apply them to our own engines too.

Love your posts

A-12 takes me back to old times with other buddies, we used to chat about it all the time.

Really genesis of GE arc here, is with the large Human resource acquiring and organisation done w.r.t the F110 program in the 1970s. How this intersects with the Pentagon analysis being done at the time regd program allocations/ecosystems regd the F-111 vs F-14 (there was an earlier synthesis of much larger carriers able to handle a near F-111 sized a/c before it diverged into F-14 to make use of conventional sized and existing allocated carriers etc).....that pratt could not be given in monolithic way (i.e whole point to bring GE huge capital to bear, though it was more civvy oriented to that point). But one will always notice the F-111 and F-14 are tied at hip in lot of things as result (this was argument given for TF-30 for F-14 originally).

But the GE arc investment was notably seen in 1980s with both the F-15/16 powerplant arcs and also TF30 being replaced by GE F110 as well.

This paid off in all kind of ways (versus pratt and also what you mention here with ease of transitioning 404 to 412 and 414) downstream to make GE a potent force in military turbojet/fan powerplants. Things go relatively tic tac toe given the earlier project expertise developed by the various teams.

 

[neosinan]

Hisar OPVs are using Türasaş V8 16 engines.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1819769428654838076