TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

AzeriTank

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Titanium (And its alloys) is a very odd metal compared to most (this is detailed long subject in itself as to why).

For example its machinability is really bad (compared to say steel).

This has specific considerations to think of and develop when it comes to both hot and cold presses (and tolerances regarding that with economics in mind) depending on both part size and also machining + further heat treatments and applications....again with economics in mind.

The arguably largest non-conventional use for titanium in history was the soviet attempt at submarine hulls using it (specifically to make use of its non-magnetic nature). They made some test examples, but the costs proved prohibitive from the manufacturing end. NATO did not even attempt anything like this, largest bulk titanium app. was kept at most to aerospace skin fab I believe.

The time used, manpower used, research capacity used, CNC tools used etc etc for what you get and the end QC etc must always be considered and balanced.

It is not an easy mainstream metal at all compared to ones (steel etc) that have 90%+ of the core techniques well established and scaled in many more countries.

This is why 3D printing of it would also need heavy RnD with end use QC in mind.

That's why specifically for titanium, there is set of presses and CNC techniques very much concentrated (i.e the investment heavy optimised capital machinery) around where the largest factories of titanium aeroengine parts are in the world. US, France, UK, Canada and Germany I would say are top 5 in western world, roughy in that order too.
you are absolutely right, but i remember Temel Kotil(head of TAI) said that they made engine parts with 3D technology that was 95% as durable as before but was made so fast and very cheap. Turkey started 3D projects more than 10 years ago. i also agree that it might take time even testing the durability of these parts in TFX engine, as its manned and important project, if they use 3D technology to make Goksungur and its engine fast, produce tens of them every year... i will be sooo relaxed and no more threat from air, they would make others think twice until 2029, when TFX get into production... that simple project is enough to go to any war, take it in Syria, in Irag, in Greece and so on.. I think, Turkey really want to get rid of Greece, as it was the only reason they didnt want to start a war in Libya against Egypt, they didnt want to take a risk when there is threat nearby, who are working together... same with Armenia, who made mistake and send threats to Turkey, and Turkey even officially replied that "armenian should stop playing with fire". Thats why, right after that, Turkey started Karabagh war plan, they finished Armenia, made peace on east, and now its Greece turn... imagine French face when their Rafale jet gets downed by Turkish Goksungun drone.. i even believe Turkey will specifically wait for that moment... it will be in all world news... downing second best aircraft nowadays by a drone.. also, first year, Greece wouldnt have much experience on them too..
 
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Zafer

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you are absolutely right, but i remember Temel Kotil(head of TAI) said that they made engine parts with 3D technology that was 95% as durable as before but was made so fast and very cheap. Turkey started 3D projects more than 10 years ago. i also agree that it might take time even testing the durability of these parts in TFX engine, as its manned and important project, if they use 3D technology to make Goksungur and its engine fast, produce tens of them every year... i will be sooo relaxed and no more threat from air, they would make others think twice until 2029, when TFX get into production... that simple project is enough to go to any war, take it in Syria, in Irag, in Greece and so on.. I think, Turkey really want to get rid of Greece, as it was the only reason they didnt want to start a war in Libya against Egypt, they didnt want to take a risk when there is threat nearby, who are working together... same with Armenia, who made mistake and send threats to Turkey, and Turkey even officially replied that "armenian should stop playing with fire". Thats why, right after that, Turkey started Karabagh war plan, they finished Armenia, made peace on east, and now its Greece turn... imagine French face when their Rafale jet gets downed by Turkish Goksungun drone.. i even believe Turkey will specifically wait for that moment... it will be in all world news... downing second best aircraft nowadays by a drone.. also, first year, Greece wouldnt have much experience on them too..
Best case scenario is not usually the more likely one.
 

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you are absolutely right, but i remember Temel Kotil(head of TAI) said that they made engine parts with 3D technology that was 95% as durable as before but was made so fast and very cheap. Turkey started 3D projects more than 10 years ago. i also agree that it might take time even testing the durability of these parts in TFX engine, as its manned and important project, if they use 3D technology to make Goksungur and its engine fast, produce tens of them every year.

Well this ties in with what the scale, estimated production number and quality control/assurance is needed.

There are many factors here that can definitely give alternative route with appropriate RnD and validation used.

Consider what is a capital investment cost of machinery used to make thousands of parts a year for commercial sector that can be directly dual use for military/research or leveraged for it....and will be expected to operate for decades even given assured need for it.

Then compare with military/research kind of machinery and parts of same field, but they only have production need of say 10 years for a program and a lot can also simply be throughput early too (rather than keep the line open over whole duration).

The much less raw production intensity/need of latter definitely open up more options for alternatives.

Having the former (large capital already established by vast scale of general commerce + MIC intermesh) lessens need for alternative route similarly, as such countries simply leverage off that...rather than spend resource and time to innovate new ways for smaller specific production runs etc.

Turkey will be very interesting case "sweetspot" study for me personally as:

A) I do not know much about it's Industries and Research output like I do some other countries (who's papers, interactions and legacy form basis of lot of my career and expertise). It is more mystery to me that I am working on reading here and other places.

B) It has geopolitical flux going on we all know, so it creates pressure for alternatives like what you and others describe

C) It has credible scientific and technical pool established, but its not a case of easy over-abundance of it, so it will have to make smart policy and decision on it, and soon given inertia such things carry into 10 - 20 year time frames

All these factors are main reason I got interested in Turkey (esp at PDF where there was a good collection of members that I have followed their migration here) past my original Turcophile tendency and interest (somewhat strange/rare for Indian I know but it is what it is).

It is actually interesting personal story that maybe one day I will go into more depth about in both general interest way but also specific direct way in my life in another kind of A--B--C way as initially I had soft cultural nicety/influence from Turkey in childhood, then developed friends from Turkey (and had a teacher who loved and took such keen interest in Turkey and shaped my further interest in it) in my teens....and then quite direct way later on during university I had not 1 but 2 Turkish professors very connected to my research area and career (1 of them is probably you can say the top 1% guy in Canada regarding thermodynamics research).

I hope to bring things together a bit later in 2021 in my gas turbine thread (which you can find in my signature) w.r.t. Turkey and other countries in the "sweetspot" zone that makes things interesting as they have lot of forces, pressures and choices to make with the capacities they have built and established (rather than just leave things to idle inertia like many other countries with more assured capacity and less pressures can do).

@xenon5434 @Sinan @anmdt
 

Zafer

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Well this ties in with what the scale, estimated production number and quality control/assurance is needed.

There are many factors here that can definitely give alternative route with appropriate RnD and validation used.

Consider what is a capital investment cost of machinery used to make thousands of parts a year for commercial sector that can be directly dual use for military/research or leveraged for it....and will be expected to operate for decades even given assured need for it.

Then compare with military/research kind of machinery and parts of same field, but they only have production need of say 10 years for a program and a lot can also simply be throughput early too (rather than keep the line open over whole duration).

The much less raw production intensity/need of latter definitely open up more options for alternatives.

Having the former (large capital already established by vast scale of general commerce + MIC intermesh) lessens need for alternative route similarly, as such countries simply leverage off that...rather than spend resource and time to innovate new ways for smaller specific production runs etc.

Turkey will be very interesting case "sweetspot" study for me personally as:

A) I do not know much about it's Industries and Research output like I do some other countries (who's papers, interactions and legacy form basis of lot of my career and expertise). It is more mystery to me that I am working on reading here and other places.

B) It has geopolitical flux going on we all know, so it creates pressure for alternatives like what you and others describe

C) It has credible scientific and technical pool established, but its not a case of easy over-abundance of it, so it will have to make smart policy and decision on it, and soon given inertia such things carry into 10 - 20 year time frames

All these factors are main reason I got interested in Turkey (esp at PDF where there was a good collection of members that I have followed their migration here) past my original Turcophile tendency and interest (somewhat strange/rare for Indian I know but it is what it is).

It is actually interesting personal story that maybe one day I will go into more depth about in both general interest way but also specific direct way in my life in another kind of A--B--C way as initially I had soft cultural nicety/influence from Turkey in childhood, then developed friends from Turkey (and had a teacher who loved and took such keen interest in Turkey and shaped my further interest in it) in my teens....and then quite direct way later on during university I had not 1 but 2 Turkish professors very connected to my research area and career (1 of them is probably you can say the top 1% guy in Canada regarding thermodynamics research).

I hope to bring things together a bit later in 2021 in my gas turbine thread (which you can find in my signature) w.r.t. Turkey and other countries in the "sweetspot" zone that makes things interesting as they have lot of forces, pressures and choices to make with the capacities they have built and established (rather than just leave things to idle inertia like many other countries with more assured capacity and less pressures can do).

@xenon5434 @Sinan @anmdt
Turkey is trying to make up for the many lost years that it suffered due to poor leadership.
We are trying to catch up to our true potential which is over 90% self sufficiency.
We are at 70% now but we have come to this point from 20% self sufficiency of 18 years ago.
It will take another decade until we get there, stay tuned.
 

AzeriTank

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Well this ties in with what the scale, estimated production number and quality control/assurance is needed.

There are many factors here that can definitely give alternative route with appropriate RnD and validation used.

Consider what is a capital investment cost of machinery used to make thousands of parts a year for commercial sector that can be directly dual use for military/research or leveraged for it....and will be expected to operate for decades even given assured need for it.

Then compare with military/research kind of machinery and parts of same field, but they only have production need of say 10 years for a program and a lot can also simply be throughput early too (rather than keep the line open over whole duration).

The much less raw production intensity/need of latter definitely open up more options for alternatives.

Having the former (large capital already established by vast scale of general commerce + MIC intermesh) lessens need for alternative route similarly, as such countries simply leverage off that...rather than spend resource and time to innovate new ways for smaller specific production runs etc.

Turkey will be very interesting case "sweetspot" study for me personally as:

A) I do not know much about it's Industries and Research output like I do some other countries (who's papers, interactions and legacy form basis of lot of my career and expertise). It is more mystery to me that I am working on reading here and other places.

B) It has geopolitical flux going on we all know, so it creates pressure for alternatives like what you and others describe

C) It has credible scientific and technical pool established, but its not a case of easy over-abundance of it, so it will have to make smart policy and decision on it, and soon given inertia such things carry into 10 - 20 year time frames

All these factors are main reason I got interested in Turkey (esp at PDF where there was a good collection of members that I have followed their migration here) past my original Turcophile tendency and interest (somewhat strange/rare for Indian I know but it is what it is).

It is actually interesting personal story that maybe one day I will go into more depth about in both general interest way but also specific direct way in my life in another kind of A--B--C way as initially I had soft cultural nicety/influence from Turkey in childhood, then developed friends from Turkey (and had a teacher who loved and took such keen interest in Turkey and shaped my further interest in it) in my teens....and then quite direct way later on during university I had not 1 but 2 Turkish professors very connected to my research area and career (1 of them is probably you can say the top 1% guy in Canada regarding thermodynamics research).

I hope to bring things together a bit later in 2021 in my gas turbine thread (which you can find in my signature) w.r.t. Turkey and other countries in the "sweetspot" zone that makes things interesting as they have lot of forces, pressures and choices to make with the capacities they have built and established (rather than just leave things to idle inertia like many other countries with more assured capacity and less pressures can do).

@xenon5434 @Sinan @anmdt
i will be honest with you, from SSB head Demir's yesterdays talk and tone i understood that they are still having hard times with Turbofan engine of TFX... he also mentioned that not a single critical part are allowed to sell to them from abroad. all of them blocked for years now. the requirement is too high, from the very start to compete with US and its best technology.. so i know that there might have so delays, but, as Turkey has huge experience with f16 engine, they are also confident that in case of war, they can mass produce it, may be with the engine parts that doesnt last long like Russians do, but in that kind of war, those jets wouldnt probably fly long.. thats why i want to focus on Goksungur, as they developed the TJ1600 engine. For example, according to KTJ3200, it was officially mentioned by the company who makes it that only 1 part is not local(i wonder so much what is that), and as they plan mass produce, that part should be able to purchase from different sources, i believe they can overcome turbo jet engine parts and make a final product.. having dozens of them on the air, having tens of thousands of flight our, will also be a very nice experience to make TFX.
 

Nilgiri

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i will be honest with you, from SSB head Demir's yesterdays talk and tone i understood that they are still having hard times with Turbofan engine of TFX... he also mentioned that not a single critical part are allowed to sell to them from abroad. all of them blocked for years now. the requirement is too high, from the very start to compete with US and its best technology.. so i know that there might have so delays, but, as Turkey has huge experience with f16 engine, they are also confident that in case of war, they can mass produce it, may be with the engine parts that doesnt last long like Russians do, but in that kind of war, those jets wouldnt probably fly long.. thats why i want to focus on Goksungur, as they developed the TJ1600 engine. For example, according to KTJ3200, it was officially mentioned by the company who makes it that only 1 part is not local(i wonder so much what is that), and as they plan mass produce, that part should be able to purchase from different sources, i believe they can overcome turbo jet engine parts and make a final product.. having dozens of them on the air, having tens of thousands of flight our, will also be a very nice experience to make TFX.

Yes this is what I am talking with QC end use. You can make stuff in wide range on performance curve if you know the trade-off of each version etc (And thus its application profile)....and solid understanding where you are and where you would like to get to relevant to the requirement and task at hand.

Consider a different subject but same concept I am hinting at here:


If you watch that video, you will see Ni metal hydride (Ni-mh) batteries immense capital sink.

So much so that all (Japanese batteries) companies said no to Sony when it pushed for a look into Li-ion in early 90s. Sony went its own way on it, rest is history.

Now it is Li-ion turn to have the immense capital sink vis-a-vis liquid metal (Ca-Sb) battery...so the latter needs initial gestation + application stepping stones over time to gain competitive economy of scale (for commercial market).

Often in military, commercial market bottom dollar is not a primary long term goal (esp at start), so much more "gestation" intensity can be provided with national strategic directive etc. So for example RnD into 3D titanium printing like Turkey is looking at now.

One example I studied is India not being content with just satellite fabrication (When it easily could have focused just there by purely going by commercial market headwind) but also on delivery system to orbit.

The latter thus got gestation intensity needed (especially requisite lateral translation from ballistic missile program), achieved the economy of scale and now its competitive in world commercial market (in various niches) anyway. This is with a string of sanctions and pressures US threw at India during the 90s decade.

Lot of time people don't get the level of RnD and IP that is locked within the economy of scale at the frontier tech, so it is very difficult to achieve the same cost/quality in direct way say within just 10 years time for large commerce sector especially etc.

Countries with limited resources that want to play catch up, have to take some risk but smart ones to prioritise things, so that they have the economy of scale break through in say 20 years or so down the road.

This is where military sector is a very notable apex and spearhead to broadly see where this lies and take decisions on it. Universities, SOEs and private corporates then over time arrange their resources accordingly.
 

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Good twitter flood by Kubilay Yıldırım

TAI President & CEO Dr. Kotil: MMU have bigger engine then two F16 engines because of this we will use a lot of titanium. We need to press 5m x 7m titanium. Only few countries in the world such capable pressing machines which they would not press for us.

Because of this, we will use 3D printing under vacuum chamber. We are acquiring 3D Titanium printing technology.

For stuff we cant make, we need to innovate. If we don't innovate this project will not be possible.

Kubilay's Analysis

"Bulkheads", the upright wall within the fuselage of an airplane is either made with pressed/manufactured titanium or aluminium. Forge pressing capability of such alloys like Dr. Kotil said is a capability only few companies/countries have.

Currently one of the factories with such capability is companies like Alcoa and Howmet. These companies have capability to design presses etc., modelling and for metallurgy.


EreKhALXUAEVTL_.jpg

EreKhAKXAAYGmeE.jpg

EreKvw3XYAAuWz3.jpg


These images can give a idea how big and critic these structure parts are.


14fgalcoajpg-907c9c9e5d681d08.jpg


50 ton capable, 5 story tall forging presses build with years of design and metallurgy experience

As a such capability will not be available for MMU program and even if its for MMU prototype, getting MMU prototype parts under their production line is not an easy task. A lot of Civillian/Military aircraft programs are forced to use this limited resource (pressing machine etc.) to manufacture their parts.

One of the bottlenecks of MMU program I suspect was this. Capabilities in bulkhead pressing will change/limit aircraft size and performance.

5m x 7m titanium is a very big, to my knowledge there is no such system to manufacture a part like that under vacuum chamber.

It will be interesting how will this turn out while preserving particle quality and material size.

Similar approach was with TS1400 engine, TS1400 was designed in consideration with bottlenecks. Especially in areas where it is not easy to acquire parts. Because of this even the engine is stronger, it is being 20-30kg more heavier was foreseen during design phase.

I hope that the solution for the parts is found if not it has potential to deeply affect MMU program
 

Zafer

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Good twitter flood by Kubilay Yıldırım

TAI President & CEO Dr. Kotil: MMU have bigger engine then two F16 engines because of this we will use a lot of titanium. We need to press 5m x 7m titanium. Only few countries in the world such capable pressing machines which they would not press for us.

Because of this, we will use 3D printing under vacuum chamber. We are acquiring 3D Titanium printing technology.

For stuff we cant make, we need to innovate. If we don't innovate this project will not be possible.

Kubilay's Analysis

"Bulkheads", the upright wall within the fuselage of an airplane is either made with pressed/manufactured titanium or aluminium. Forge pressing capability of such alloys like Dr. Kotil said is a capability only few companies/countries have.

Currently one of the factories with such capability is companies like Alcoa and Howmet. These companies have capability to design presses etc., modelling and for metallurgy.


View attachment 11388
View attachment 11389
View attachment 11390

These images can give a idea how big and critic these structure parts are.


View attachment 11391

50 ton capable, 5 story tall forging presses build with years of design and metallurgy experience

As a such capability will not be available for MMU program and even if its for MMU prototype, getting MMU prototype parts under their production line is not an easy task. A lot of Civillian/Military aircraft programs are forced to use this limited resource (pressing machine etc.) to manufacture their parts.

One of the bottlenecks of MMU program I suspect was this. Capabilities in bulkhead pressing will change/limit aircraft size and performance.

5m x 7m titanium is a very big, to my knowledge there is no such system to manufacture a part like that under vacuum chamber.

It will be interesting how will this turn out while preserving particle quality and material size.

Similar approach was with TS1400 engine, TS1400 was designed in consideration with bottlenecks. Especially in areas where it is not easy to acquire parts. Because of this even the engine is stronger, it is being 20-30kg more heavier was foreseen during design phase.

I hope that the solution for the parts is found if not it has potential to deeply affect MMU program
The vague news led our minds to wander wildly into other domains than what the talker intended. We made engine shrouds from the sheet metal rather than plane structural bulkheads. Such a waste of our time.
 
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Combat-Master

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Good twitter flood by Kubilay Yıldırım

TAI President & CEO Dr. Kotil: MMU have bigger engine then two F16 engines because of this we will use a lot of titanium. We need to press 5m x 7m titanium. Only few countries in the world such capable pressing machines which they would not press for us.

Because of this, we will use 3D printing under vacuum chamber. We are acquiring 3D Titanium printing technology.

For stuff we cant make, we need to innovate. If we don't innovate this project will not be possible.

Kubilay's Analysis

"Bulkheads", the upright wall within the fuselage of an airplane is either made with pressed/manufactured titanium or aluminium. Forge pressing capability of such alloys like Dr. Kotil said is a capability only few companies/countries have.

Currently one of the factories with such capability is companies like Alcoa and Howmet. These companies have capability to design presses etc., modelling and for metallurgy.


View attachment 11388
View attachment 11389
View attachment 11390

These images can give a idea how big and critic these structure parts are.


View attachment 11391

50 ton capable, 5 story tall forging presses build with years of design and metallurgy experience

As a such capability will not be available for MMU program and even if its for MMU prototype, getting MMU prototype parts under their production line is not an easy task. A lot of Civillian/Military aircraft programs are forced to use this limited resource (pressing machine etc.) to manufacture their parts.

One of the bottlenecks of MMU program I suspect was this. Capabilities in bulkhead pressing will change/limit aircraft size and performance.

5m x 7m titanium is a very big, to my knowledge there is no such system to manufacture a part like that under vacuum chamber.

It will be interesting how will this turn out while preserving particle quality and material size.

Similar approach was with TS1400 engine, TS1400 was designed in consideration with bottlenecks. Especially in areas where it is not easy to acquire parts. Because of this even the engine is stronger, it is being 20-30kg more heavier was foreseen during design phase.

I hope that the solution for the parts is found if not it has potential to deeply affect MMU program

I understand the simplicity and weight savings a single forged then milled piece can provide, but, I'm sure there are other ways around it. This forge didn't exist when F-22 was being developed - which is more comparable to our TFX project. How was the bulkheads for the F-22 produced, perhaps multiple pieces brought together ?

1995_f22_engineering_drawing_850.jpg

F-22-bulkhead-forging-3000-kg-17-m-high-by-4m-wide-Source-J-Rossow-Wyman-Gordon.jpg

Schematic-of-F-22-aft-fuselage-assembly-showing-Ti-components-The-bulkhead-frames-and.jpg
 
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Nilgiri

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I understand the simplicity and weight savings a single forged then milled piece can provide, but, I'm sure there are other ways around it. This forge didn't exist when F-22 was being developed - which is more comparable to our TFX project. How was the bulkheads for the F-22 produced, perhaps multiple pieces brought together ?

View attachment 11440
View attachment 11441
View attachment 11442

Yes more limited production run of F-22 so less capital investment and RnD to achieve single piece.

The subcontractor was Wyman-Gordon.

Some useful examples (using 35k ton press rather than 50k ton one) can be found in the middle pages here:

 

Nilgiri

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It must be noted at the end there is a single piece bulkhead for F-22 as well (as has already been posted here)....so I am assuming there are various mid section parts regd multi-piece frames and single piece bulkheads.

So they already did have the capacity to do it for F-22
 

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British Ambassador Chilcott: (TF-X) It may be possible to finish on time or ahead of time. There is a problem, which will be the right engine? As a British Ambassador, I regret Rolls-Royce not being included. Maybe one day will be included, negotiations continue. The studies are fine.
 

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I hope this get achieved so the haters can shut up.

All I hear is ohh Turkey cant build a jet this and that.

Im confident they will never underestimate a nations struggle. I sense some F35 and S400 fanboys want this program to fail because they want their American and Russian toys.
 

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Looking at the timeline PDR was slated for around September of 2022. With Temel Kotil's statement this stage seems to be going to be achieved around 17 months earlier. If the same pace of progress is kept up the serial production can start 5 years earlier than slated, optimistically speaking. What do you think, please comment down below.
 

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I don't think....MMU's first flight date still 2025(or 2026)

You should add for at least 5 years for IOC
 

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Why dont we cooperate in this project and involve more countries? For example, we are keeping it quiet for Uyghurs, China shall aid us in our project? If we could shorten 10 years to sth like 7 years or less wouldnt it be better?
 

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